I had some time to peruse the thread resulting from part 8.
The question of “what (or who) is Israel” is a fascinating one. (To me). I’m sorry I don’t see where that was specifically addressed in part 8.
Regardless I’d like an answer to it too. But here are my thoughts:
I think it’s pretty clear that Israel (as a nation, in the OT) was comprised of a chosen people. Favored by God. That is, they were set apart, or called out from the rest of humanity for a special task.
Now the word “church” means “called out or set apart” I believe. (I’d appreciate some correction there or anywhere needed). I’m pretty sure it means that though, as well as “the Body of Christ”. The two meanings aren’t dissimilar or conflicting. Those who are chosen by God, set apart by God, are then in the Body of Christ.
So I’m not sure why it’s so “bad” to believe that Israel, even as a nation is the Church. The church being those called out by God, chosen by Him.
This is seen in the OT with the Jews. It’s seen more clearly in the NT when the church is revealed to have a broader meaning than that which was understood by the Jews.
This doesn’t exclude the Jews. Indeed, to those who remain in the church by accepting the entire revelation of God to man, i.e., basically becoming Christians, they will indeed receive the promises made to Israel in the OT, as well as any other Christian.
So no promises are broken by believing the Church is Israel. All the promises due the bride of Christ will be fulfilled to Jew and Gentile alike, who are part of the Body of Christ, i.e., the called out ones, the chosen.
How is this wrong? (This question is for anyone not just you WM). I don’t see how it could be wrong. It does seem to me though in explaining how it’s wrong, one must explain what Israel is, if *not* the Church.
Thanks,
Not accurate...Christians receive the spiritual promises...The Jews receive the physical promises; the land...They received the promise in part but will be completely fulfilled during the Millenniel reign of Jesus Christ, on earth, in Jerusalem...
While some Jews have joined the church (small c), the entirety of the Jews will turn to Jesus when he removes the blindness from them, after the church is gone...
47, you made my night. this is why I post here. someone needs to defend what Christians have believed for 2,000 years from those who think every Christian prior to the 19th century was an idiot. keep reading, you will see dispensationalism makes no sense and that’s why no one believed it for 19 centuries.
I think I need to correct one misconception you have that I see others making sometimes and that is that Israel was a "chosen people" out of the rest of humanity - as if God did an eeny, meeny, miny, mo and landed on Israel. That is not true. Remember, that it all started with Abraham and God's promises to him and his "seed". Abraham had a son, Isaac, and he had a son, Jacob, who fathered twelve sons who are called the twelve tribes of Israel (Jacob's name was changed by God to "Israel" which is why the descendants were called the nation of Israel). It is to THIS nation that God gave specific promises - some conditional and others, unconditional. It is the nation of Israel that God "betrothed" to Himself and gave a covenant of marriage.
So, there are promises to the nation of Israel and there are promises to Abraham's "seed" and they ARE differentiated. As a Christian, I am a "by faith child of Abraham" - God said his seed would be as numberless as the sands of the sea - and I have been grafted into the branch of spiritual Israel. Many Jews were and are part of the Bride of Christ during this church "age", but the nation as a whole has rejected Jesus as Messiah - as prophesied. They WILL one day return to God at the end of the Tribulation, accept Jesus as their promised Messiah and be given the inheritance of the physical land God promised to them.
The Greek word for church is "ecclesia" and it does mean the called-out ones. But this doesn't mean that the church has replaced Israel. For this time, we (the wild branch) are grafted into Christ, but we did not take the place of Israel - they are the natural branches. They will be grafted BACK in through faith.
You are really close to something here - In the greatest aspect of ekklesia, I believe it is transferable directly to the Hebrew idea of 'congregation' - The 'congregation', the gathered 'called out ones' did not begin at Pentecost - It began in Egypt, or even before that with Abraham himself... One could even argue that it began right in the Garden, soon after the fall. In that greater sense, it is a single, continuous, contiguous, entity. There is no difference between the pre-Calvary and post-Calvary 'congregation' wrt intent, purpose, and salvation. It is monolithic. The difference is only between 'the thing hoped for' before Calvary, and 'the thing realized' going forward from Calvary. In the whole of these, those from among that whole with a true heart (projecting ever forward to the end), ARE true Israel. These, en toto, are the true Church. The very same thing.
The division between the two MUST be false to the reality of YHWH's intent, for of a surety, it is the same Blood which saves them all. And it's purpose has never changed, what it has been 'called out' to do - it is external to it's own self: To go out into the world and recover into itself as many of the Sons of Adam as possible, within the grace of YHWH. To win as many as possible. The grand scheme is to save the Sons of Adam, and True Israel is the physical mechanism YHWH is using to perform that task, under the egis of His role as Messiah, the ultimate Israel.
But the Bible contains other threads, both internal and external to that greater scope of Israel. As that touches the prophecy, it must necessarily must take place, as the prophecy is the primary proof of YHWH against all comers - And it is incorrect to say that all of the prophecy is all about Messiah.
The inheritance is a solid proof of that fact - Most of the prophecies we are arguing over are tied up in that Inheritance. And the Inheritance is strictly promised to bloodline Israel according to the various sons thereof. The inheritance, according to Torah, cannot be transferred - it is specifically given to the exact tribe it is promised to. So I see no means by which that inheritance can wind up anywhere else - Judah's no doubt winds up in Messiah, but what of the other 12 tribes? And the lion's share winds up in Ephraim, not Judah, who, of the promises, retains his land, the scepter, and the rod...
And there are also specific declaratory promises made to the two nations of Israel, the two wives, consisting of their respective bloodline tribes. To answer your question regarding this point, in this sense, the church cannot have subsumed all of that, because Judah (the House of Judah) is still married to YHWH - She has never received a bill of divorcement, even though she had been put away for a time... That House of Judah is the national Israel that we know today. They hail out of, and trace their roots to, the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi (the priestly line) - These are the tribes of the House of Judah.
These two examples are provably true (the Inheritance and promises specific to the two Houses), separate from Messiah, and separate from the church, and more importantly (for this conversation), they remain unfulfilled.