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Why do Protestant lay people hate clergy?

Posted on 07/26/2014 4:41:46 AM PDT by michaelwlf3

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To: G Larry
You attended many denominations and you learned “something” from each of them...

Translated to Rome speak: Poorly Catechized

501 posted on 07/27/2014 8:12:07 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie
Uniting agains(t) Protestants is no proof that the Catholic interpretation is more accurate.

Ya think?

502 posted on 07/27/2014 8:12:52 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: metmom
I have never met anyone who is so good at making presumptions at what others say as Catholics.

Happy to oblige.

They can come to conclusions so unrelated to the topic at hand that it really leaves one wondering what pathways of thought are being used.

Simple reasoning would indicate that the entire Bread of Life discourse was not metaphorical, and certainly not Christ's use of the word spirit which is a real phenomenon. Unfortunately for the protestant they have to treat it as metaphorical (a recent and novel invention) in order to deny the Eucharist, the sacredotal priesthood and the Catholic Church as the Church instituted by Christ.

Furthermore, the protestant understanding of flesh in John 6:64 doesn't apply to Christ as he was referring to human flesh, specifically human understanding of the miracle of the Eucharist, but since the protestant understanding of this scriptural passage borders on monophysitistic it's easy to understand how they arrive at their error which naturally would apply to the Crucifixion if they were to follow it to it's logical conclusion.

It's small wonder that Catholics believe that they cannot understand Scripture without someone telling them what it means.

Why wonder? It's scriptural: Acts 8:27

If what I see here on FR is an example of how Catholics interpret Scripture, they probably really are better off letting someone else do it for them.

So sorry that Catholic understanding of Sacred Scripture doesn't rise to the proper level of protestant "intellectual" discourse.

And lest I be accused of not answering the question, no, that is not my position. My position is that eating a piece of wheat bread that someone claims is Jesus' body does not impart spiritual life because spiritual life comes from the Spirit, as Jesus said.

Which was the claim of Jesus when he said This is My Body. But let me ask you a question, let us assume, for a moment that you agreed that it was Jesus. Would you agree that we have a duty, an obligation, a divine command to receive him?

There is not any Scripture that supports that nor is there any mention of the word *eucharist* in the Bible.

Neither is the word Trinity, so on some fundamental level you have to accept doctrinal development, which, inevitably leads to an authority on Earth to make such determinations.

503 posted on 07/27/2014 8:13:40 PM PDT by JPX2011
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To: Mr Rogers
You ARE aware that John 6 took place after the feeding of the 5000, and not at Passover?

John chapter 6 DOES contain some good stuff; don't it!!


 

John 6:28-29

Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”



504 posted on 07/27/2014 8:13:58 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: metmom

I do not know what I am doing differently but some letters do not type at all. Then spell checker tries to do its thing and gets the whole word wrong. I just have too much on my mind. Was recently told I have MG and will be having eye muscle surgery after seeing a neurologist on the 13th. Then found out a few days ago that I heve a pinched sciatic nerve. I am seeing double until after the surgery. That is for the birds. Nah, I would not want them to have that! Just too much at once. God is great!


505 posted on 07/27/2014 8:16:19 PM PDT by MamaB
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To: HarleyD
What's to say that God didn't appoint Martin Luther in much the same way?
  1. It is appalling that men should take this filthy talker, whose hopelessly dirty language indicated the morally diseased state of his mind, as a guide to expound Eternal Law, and that they should hang upon his words, hold him up for imitation and entrust to him their salvation. It is pitiable but true that men have eyes and see not, they have ears and hear not, they have hearts and feel not. Oh! that the eyes and the ears and the hearts of our separated brethren, if their faculties are not blunted, would come to recognize the unspeakable character of the heresiarch's utterances, his obscene remarks, his vulgar jokes, his habitual nasty references to sexual matters, and discover in time that this open, brazen and shameless violator of all conventional decency could not in any sense have been raised up by the All-Holy to lead men to the Kingdom of Heaven.
  2. Martin Luther - "The Jews & Their Lies"
  3. The prevailing view[28] among historians is that Luther's anti-Jewish rhetoric contributed significantly to the development of antisemitism in Germany,[29] and in the 1930s and 1940s provided an ideal foundation for the Nazi Party's attacks on Jews.[30] Reinhold Lewin writes that "whoever wrote against the Jews for whatever reason believed he had the right to justify himself by triumphantly referring to Luther." According to Michael, just about every anti-Jewish book printed in the Third Reich contained references to and quotations from Luther. Diarmaid MacCulloch argues that Luther's 1543 pamphlet On the Jews and Their Lies was a "blueprint" for the Kristallnacht.[31] Shortly after the Kristallnacht, Martin Sasse, Bishop of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Thuringia, published a compendium of Martin Luther's writings ; Sasse "applauded the burning of the synagogues" and the coincidence of the day, writing in the introduction, "On November 10, 1938, on Luther's birthday, the synagogues are burning in Germany." The German people, he urged, ought to heed these words "of the greatest anti-Semite of his time, the warner of his people against the Jews."[32] In 1940, Heinrich Himmler wrote admiringly of Luther's writings and sermons on the Jews.[33] The city of Nuremberg presented a first edition of On the Jews and their Lies to Julius Streicher, editor of the Nazi newspaper Der Stürmer, on his birthday in 1937; the newspaper described it as the most radically antisemitic tract ever published.[34] ... Regarding Luther's treatise, On the Jews and Their Lies, the German philosopher Karl Jaspers wrote: "There you already have the whole Nazi program".[38]
  4. The prevailing scholarly view[42] since the Second World War is that the treatise exercised a major and persistent influence on Germany's attitude toward its Jewish citizens in the centuries between the Reformation and the Holocaust. Four hundred years after it was written, the Nazi Party displayed On the Jews and Their Lies during Nuremberg rallies, and the city of Nuremberg presented a first edition to Julius Streicher, editor of the Nazi newspaper Der Stürmer, the newspaper describing it as the most radically antisemitic tract ever published

506 posted on 07/27/2014 8:18:41 PM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began)
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To: JPX2011
But let me ask you a question, let us assume, for a moment that you agreed that it was Jesus. Would you agree that we have a duty, an obligation, a divine command to receive him?

If I thought that's how Jesus entered into me, yes, I would feel an obligation to eat him.

But Christ dwells in our hearts THROUGH FAITH.

Ephesians 3:14-19 For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named, that according to the riches of his glory he may grant you to be strengthened with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith—that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may have strength to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.

Neither is the word Trinity, so on some fundamental level you have to accept doctrinal development, which, inevitably leads to an authority on Earth to make such determinations.

Two words....

sola Scriptura

507 posted on 07/27/2014 8:18:43 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: metmom

508 posted on 07/27/2014 8:19:10 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas

John 6:29 -— Jesus


509 posted on 07/27/2014 8:19:51 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: dsc
Catholic lay people aren’t concerned enough with the whole thing to hate.

Except for LUTHER; of course!

We HATE that guy!!!

--Catholic_Wannabe_Dude(Hail Mary!!)

510 posted on 07/27/2014 8:21:35 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: metmom
Simply not attributing it leaves the impression that it is one's own work.

Oh please. If there is one thing that is elemental here on the RF it's that none of what we posit is original. That goes for both sides. It's just that some people get hung up on process over substance.

Nice attempt as weaseling out of the charge, which is accurate, but dan owes no one any apology process over substance

Really? Does not the accusation of plagiarism impute to the individual being accused a motive to deceive, which is a violation of the RF rules? If one wanted to say, "Hey you failed to cite your source" that's one thing, but to cry "Plagiarist!" is another kettle of fish.

If people want to avoid the charge of plagiarism, then they need to attribute the work.

So the default position is that if I, or anyone else for that matter posts something and fails to attribute the source then one is attempting to deceive?

511 posted on 07/27/2014 8:22:00 PM PDT by JPX2011
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To: G Larry

69 Too whom would we go? YOU have the words of eternal life!


512 posted on 07/27/2014 8:23:17 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: ealgeone
You need to check out some early church history. There was disagreement as to the meaning of this text.

Ha ha HA!!!


When SHOWN catholic teaching on it; they TOTALLY ignore it!


As regards the oft-quoted Mt. 16:18, note the bishops promise in the profession of faith of Vatican 1,

 

Likewise I accept Sacred Scripture according to that sense which Holy mother Church held and holds, since it is her right to judge of the true sense and interpretation of the holy scriptures; nor will I ever receive and interpret them except according to the unanimous consent of the fathers.http://mb-soft.com/believe/txs/firstvc.htm

Yet as the Dominican cardinal and Catholic theologian Yves Congar O.P. states,

Unanimous patristic consent as a reliable locus theologicus is classical in Catholic theology; it has often been declared such by the magisterium and its value in scriptural interpretation has been especially stressed. Application of the principle is difficult, at least at a certain level. In regard to individual texts of Scripture total patristic consensus is rare...One example: the interpretation of Peter’s confession in Matthew 16:16-18. Except at Rome, this passage was not applied by the Fathers to the papal primacy; they worked out an exegesis at the level of their own ecclesiological thought, more anthropological and spiritual than juridical. — Yves M.-J. Congar, O.P., p. 71

And Catholic archbishop Peter Richard Kenrick (1806-1896), while yet seeking to support Peter as the rock, stated that,

“If we are bound to follow the majority of the fathers in this thing, then we are bound to hold for certain that by the rock should be understood the faith professed by Peter, not Peter professing the faith.” — Speech of archbishop Kenkick, p. 109; An inside view of the vatican council, edited by Leonard Woolsey Bacon.

Your own CCC allows the interpretation that, “On the rock of this faith confessed by St Peter, Christ build his Church,” (pt. 1, sec. 2, cp. 2, para. 424), for some of the ancients (for what their opinion is worth) provided for this or other interpretations.

• Ambrosiaster [who elsewhere upholds Peter as being the chief apostle to whom the Lord had entrusted the care of the Church, but not superior to Paul as an apostle except in time], Eph. 2:20:

Wherefore the Lord says to Peter: 'Upon this rock I shall build my Church,' that is, upon this confession of the catholic faith I shall establish the faithful in life. — Ambrosiaster, Commentaries on Galatians—Philemon, Eph. 2:20; Gerald L. Bray, p. 42

• Augustine, sermon:

"Christ, you see, built his Church not on a man but on Peter's confession. What is Peter's confession? 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' There's the rock for you, there's the foundation, there's where the Church has been built, which the gates of the underworld cannot conquer.John Rotelle, O.S.A., Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine , © 1993 New City Press, Sermons, Vol III/6, Sermon 229P.1, p. 327

Upon this rock, said the Lord, I will build my Church. Upon this confession, upon this that you said, 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God,' I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not conquer her (Mt. 16:18). John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City, 1993) Sermons, Volume III/7, Sermon 236A.3, p. 48.

Augustine, sermon:

For petra (rock) is not derived from Peter, but Peter from petra; just as Christ is not called so from the Christian, but the Christian from Christ. For on this very account the Lord said, 'On this rock will I build my Church,' because Peter had said, 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.' On this rock, therefore, He said, which thou hast confessed, I will build my Church. For the Rock (Petra) was Christ; and on this foundation was Peter himself built. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Christ Jesus. The Church, therefore, which is founded in Christ received from Him the keys of the kingdom of heaven in the person of Peter, that is to say, the power of binding and loosing sins. For what the Church is essentially in Christ, such representatively is Peter in the rock (petra); and in this representation Christ is to be understood as the Rock, Peter as the Church. — Augustine Tractate CXXIV; Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers: First Series, Volume VII Tractate CXXIV (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf107.iii.cxxv.html)

Augustine, sermon:

And Peter, one speaking for the rest of them, one for all, said, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God (Mt 16:15-16)...And I tell you: you are Peter; because I am the rock, you are Rocky, Peter-I mean, rock doesn't come from Rocky, but Rocky from rock, just as Christ doesn't come from Christian, but Christian from Christ; and upon this rock I will build my Church (Mt 16:17-18); not upon Peter, or Rocky, which is what you are, but upon the rock which you have confessed. I will build my Church though; I will build you, because in this answer of yours you represent the Church. — John Rotelle, O.S.A. Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City Press, 1993), Sermons, Volume III/7, Sermon 270.2, p. 289

Augustine, sermon:

Peter had already said to him, 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' He had already heard, 'Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona, because flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of the underworld shall not conquer her' (Mt 16:16-18)...Christ himself was the rock, while Peter, Rocky, was only named from the rock. That's why the rock rose again, to make Peter solid and strong; because Peter would have perished, if the rock hadn't lived. — John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City, 1993) Sermons, Volume III/7, Sermon 244.1, p. 95

Augustine, sermon:

...because on this rock, he said, I will build my Church, and the gates of the underworld shall not overcome it (Mt. 16:18). Now the rock was Christ (1 Cor. 10:4). Was it Paul that was crucified for you? Hold on to these texts, love these texts, repeat them in a fraternal and peaceful manner. — John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City Press, 1995), Sermons, Volume III/10, Sermon 358.5, p. 193

Augustine, Psalm LXI:

Let us call to mind the Gospel: 'Upon this Rock I will build My Church.' Therefore She crieth from the ends of the earth, whom He hath willed to build upon a Rock. But in order that the Church might be builded upon the Rock, who was made the Rock? Hear Paul saying: 'But the Rock was Christ.' On Him therefore builded we have been. — Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1956), Volume VIII, Saint Augustin, Exposition on the Book of Psalms, Psalm LXI.3, p. 249. (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf108.ii.LXI.html)

• Augustine, in “Retractions,”

In a passage in this book, I said about the Apostle Peter: 'On him as on a rock the Church was built.'...But I know that very frequently at a later time, I so explained what the Lord said: 'Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church,' that it be understood as built upon Him whom Peter confessed saying: 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,' and so Peter, called after this rock, represented the person of the Church which is built upon this rock, and has received 'the keys of the kingdom of heaven.' For, 'Thou art Peter' and not 'Thou art the rock' was said to him. But 'the rock was Christ,' in confessing whom, as also the whole Church confesses, Simon was called Peter. But let the reader decide which of these two opinions is the more probable. — The Fathers of the Church (Washington D.C., Catholic University, 1968), Saint Augustine, The Retractations Chapter 20.1:.

Basil of Seleucia, Oratio 25:

'You are Christ, Son of the living God.'...Now Christ called this confession a rock, and he named the one who confessed it 'Peter,' perceiving the appellation which was suitable to the author of this confession. For this is the solemn rock of religion, this the basis of salvation, this the wall of faith and the foundation of truth: 'For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Christ Jesus.' To whom be glory and power forever. — Oratio XXV.4, M.P.G., Vol. 85, Col. 296-297.

Bede, Matthaei Evangelium Expositio, 3:

You are Peter and on this rock from which you have taken your name, that is, on myself, I will build my Church, upon that perfection of faith which you confessed I will build my Church by whose society of confession should anyone deviate although in himself he seems to do great things he does not belong to the building of my Church...Metaphorically it is said to him on this rock, that is, the Saviour which you confessed, the Church is to be built, who granted participation to the faithful confessor of his name. — 80Homily 23, M.P.L., Vol. 94, Col. 260. Cited by Karlfried Froehlich, Formen, Footnote #204, p. 156 [unable to verify by me].

• Cassiodorus, Psalm 45.5:

'It will not be moved' is said about the Church to which alone that promise has been given: 'You are Peter and upon this rock I shall build my Church and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.' For the Church cannot be moved because it is known to have been founded on that most solid rock, namely, Christ the Lord. — Expositions in the Psalms, Volume 1; Volume 51, Psalm 45.5, p. 455

Chrysostom (John) [who affirmed Peter was a rock, but here not the rock in Mt. 16:18]:

Therefore He added this, 'And I say unto thee, Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church; that is, on the faith of his confession. — Chrysostom, Homilies on the Gospel of Saint Matthew, Homily LIIl; Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf110.iii.LII.html)

Cyril of Alexandria:

When [Peter] wisely and blamelessly confessed his faith to Jesus saying, 'You are Christ, Son of the living God,' Jesus said to divine Peter: 'You are Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church.' Now by the word 'rock', Jesus indicated, I think, the immoveable faith of the disciple.”. — Cyril Commentary on Isaiah 4.2.

Origen, Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew (Book XII):

“For a rock is every disciple of Christ of whom those drank who drank of the spiritual rock which followed them, 1 Corinthians 10:4 and upon every such rock is built every word of the church, and the polity in accordance with it; for in each of the perfect, who have the combination of words and deeds and thoughts which fill up the blessedness, is the church built by God.'

“For all bear the surname ‘rock’ who are the imitators of Christ, that is, of the spiritual rock which followed those who are being saved, that they may drink from it the spiritual draught. But these bear the surname of rock just as Christ does. But also as members of Christ deriving their surname from Him they are called Christians, and from the rock, Peters.” — Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew (Book XII), sect. 10,11 ( http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/101612.htm)

Hilary of Potier, On the Trinity (Book II): Thus our one immovable foundation, our one blissful rock of faith, is the confession from Peter's mouth, Thou art the Son of the living God. On it we can base an answer to every objection with which perverted ingenuity or embittered treachery may assail the truth."-- (Hilary of Potier, On the Trinity (Book II), para 23; Philip Schaff, editor, The Nicene & Post Nicene Fathers Series 2, Vol 9.

513 posted on 07/27/2014 8:25:11 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: AbnSarge
Notwithstanding the happy ending, I was still trembling . . . and almost felt like I needed an exorcism to expel my shattered soul, as I had to confront again the horror this whole mess has been to victims and their families, our Catholic people like the man I had just met . . . and to us priests.

Golly!

Whatever shall you do when the going gets REALLY rough??

514 posted on 07/27/2014 8:27:54 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: G Larry
... not discerning the body of the Lord" (1 Corinthians 11, 27‑29).

1 Corinthians 12:27
Now you are the body of Christ, and each of you is a part of it.

515 posted on 07/27/2014 8:30:10 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: G Larry
First of all the ending to your verse “of the Lord” is not found in the original Greek. But then let’s look at what the “body” of Christ is.

1 Corinthians 12:27 and ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

It was an admonition to not eat as if they were eating any other meal with none believers. It was a commemoration or remembrance of the sacrifice of Christ.

516 posted on 07/27/2014 8:31:03 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: G Larry

1 Corinthians 12:27
Now you are the body of Christ, and each of you is a part of it.


517 posted on 07/27/2014 8:31:03 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: evangmlw
Let me first say that all Protestants are not necessarily true Christians.

Likewise...


Let me also say that some Catholics are not necessarily true Christians.

518 posted on 07/27/2014 8:32:32 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: editor-surveyor

thanks for narrowing down what you were referring to.


519 posted on 07/27/2014 8:33:16 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: editor-surveyor

That’s what blenders are for!

A little snippet here; one from over there; something else from back tehere and BINGO! you’ve got Mary appearing all over the place; telling little girls just what to relate to others...


520 posted on 07/27/2014 8:35:28 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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