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Did Paul invent or hijack Christianity?
Madison Ruppert ^ | 06/24/2014

Posted on 06/24/2014 2:13:28 PM PDT by SeekAndFind

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To: Springfield Reformer
But those are all Biblical quotes

No, they are not. As an instance, you will find no where in Torah that one cannot cook milk and meat together (There is a really easy one).

1,261 posted on 07/13/2014 7:35:00 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: roamer_1

Well, the author does label that one specifically as halakhah. But that still leaves 612, except for the handful that Maimonides neglected altogether. I’ll have to dig those up later. So I’d need an app to keep track of 612 commands. Got anything else you can eliminate?


1,262 posted on 07/13/2014 7:49:21 PM PDT by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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To: editor-surveyor

Blinders...


1,263 posted on 07/13/2014 7:56:50 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: editor-surveyor
He said it only to those to whom their wealth was an impediment to their salvation.

Nice spin.

One thing you lack...

1,264 posted on 07/13/2014 7:57:38 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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Comment #1,265 Removed by Moderator

To: Springfield Reformer
Well, the author does label that one specifically as halakhah. But that still leaves 612, except for the handful that Maimonides neglected altogether. I’ll have to dig those up later. So I’d need an app to keep track of 612 commands. Got anything else you can eliminate?

That would take forever... Better to go through the entire Torah on your own and discern for yourself. Although Karaite links might be helpful to you - Karaites are to Judaism what Protestantism is to the Roman church - I don't entirely agree with them either (they too are insular, which is faulty according to the design of Torah), but I think you will find much to chew on through them, and I think you are learned and open-minded enough to ponder... The Karaites reject Talmudic/Rabbinic tradition. So they are likely to be more on point wrt their interpretation of the commandments.

And another thing to bear in mind - all commandments are not for all people - Some are personal, some are national, some regard the priests, some are direct strictures, some are guides to good living... The things beyond your personal control are not yours to do.

It is a remarkable ruleset to govern nations, religion, health, welfare, war, relationships, contracts, and personal... etc. You leave me with the inference that it is all too much, but I would submit that it is quite concise compared to the laws of any other kingdom/nation you might compare it to.

1,266 posted on 07/13/2014 8:04:49 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: roamer_1
The things beyond your personal control are not yours to do.

Where is that in the law? Or is that a modification to the law that you or perhaps a rabbinical authority offered up to accommodate for the difficulty in actually complying?

Again, this is nothing personal to you. You're a decent chap to talk to. So don't take this the wrong way. But I'm an attorney (and a programmer - odd combo, I know). I work with contracts, among other things. And one of the basic principles of contract law is you can't hold somebody to a contract unless all the important terms and conditions are spelled out. By your refusal to elaborate on what constitutes the exact content of Torah, you are asking me to sign on to a contract where I don't know, and maybe can't ever know my obligations. You yourself said it would take forever to work through all the commands. So the very thing you're telling me I'm obligated to do, you won't tell me what it is. Or at least what you think it is. Why would any sane person sign on to a contract like that?

1,267 posted on 07/13/2014 8:41:31 PM PDT by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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To: Springfield Reformer; roamer_1

But woe unto you Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and every herb, and pass over justice and the love of God: but these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Woe unto you Pharisees! for ye love the chief seats in the synagogues, and the salutations in the marketplaces. Woe unto you! for ye are as the tombs which appear not, and the men that walk over them know it not.

And one of the lawyers answering saith unto him, Teacher, in saying this thou reproachest us also. And he said, Woe unto you lawyers also! for ye load men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers. Woe unto you! for ye build the tombs of the prophets, and your fathers killed them. So ye are witnesses and consent unto the works of your fathers: for they killed them, and ye build their tombs. Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send unto them prophets and apostles; and some of them they shall kill and persecute; that the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; from the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zachariah, who perished between the altar and the sanctuary: yea, I say unto you, it shall be required of this generation. Woe unto you lawyers! for ye took away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

And when he was come out from thence, the scribes and the Pharisees began to press upon him vehemently, and to provoke him to speak of many things; laying wait for him, to catch something out of his mouth. (Luke 11:42-54)


1,268 posted on 07/13/2014 10:13:42 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: Springfield Reformer
[roamer_1:] The things beyond your personal control are not yours to do.

Where is that in the law? Or is that a modification to the law that you or perhaps a rabbinical authority offered up to accommodate for the difficulty in actually complying?

No, nothing like that - It's just inherent in the document. As an example, you are a shopkeeper in ancient Israel... You see a murder occur. Now, Torah says not to let a murderer live in your midst - And one must stone a murderer... That doesn't mean YOU get to start pitching stones at the guy. Torah also says there has to be a trial. There has to be another witness. There has to be a judiciary authority applied. So that part is beyond your personal control.

Personally, YOU would have to report it, and give an honest testimony, and keep yourself and your testimony free of being swayed by any influence... You may be called to throw that stone eventually, once guilt is determined according to jurist prudence...

Likewise, YOU would have *nothing* to do with the running of the Temple, and the dress and deportment of the priests... Now, maybe some priest may not have washed his feet, as is necessary according to Torah... No doubt you could inform him of his mistake, and no doubt you could report him to his betters, but it is not up to YOU to execute any judgement in the thing.

So since Torah speaks to a nation, there is an inherent distribution of powers which certainly reaches beyond the individual. Weights and standards, product assurance, law enforcement, judiciary, military, priestly duties, etc... All of these are beyond the scope of the individual. He cannot enforce these things.

But the individual also is addressed - Hygiene, Kosher, personal honesty, personal integrity personal honor within the larger scope of the whole - YOU, as a shopkeeper, have no control over standards, weights, and measures themselves, BUT YOU have a personal instruction not to shave your weights, not to put your thumb on the scale... to conduct yourself honestly in your contracts, etc.

But I'm an attorney (and a programmer - odd combo, I know).

Hah! I am a programmer too - Re-read Paul and think 'logic bomb'... Sorry... it's an aside, but you just might understand me. Likewise, look at the whole Bible as software - You will come to find out that all the variables are assigned and defined (like almost always) IN THE BEGINNING. The software won't run without Torah.

And as an attorney, put aside your faith, and look at the covenants (to include the inheritance). Look at how they are constructed, couched one inside the next... Look at what is declared explicitly. You and I both know explicit statements stand upon their own, and cannot be altered. Look at where the obligation lies... I will be surprised if you cannot see what I see.

I work with contracts, among other things. And one of the basic principles of contract law is you can't hold somebody to a contract unless all the important terms and conditions are spelled out. By your refusal to elaborate on what constitutes the exact content of Torah, you are asking me to sign on to a contract where I don't know, and maybe can't ever know my obligations.

Nonsense. Read the contract. No, really, DO. I cannot spell out all those things in this short missive - I cannot even summarize it here... I CAN tell you that if you cut to the chase, and head right for Leviticus and Deuteronomy, you will undoubtedly miss the important stuff. And then read the writings and the prophets for more clarity. The OT is BIG, dude. Layer upon layer, all interwoven... If you try to skim over it, you will not see what it says. It is a simply awesome document.

And while IANAL, I was a contractor for most of my life, so I can read a contract too - And I would never be satisfied to have someone tell me what the contract says... Summaries are nice and all, but you and I both know who has to read the contract. I might need a lawyer to help me understand it, but I, me personally, had better understand it completely before I sign anything.

You yourself said it would take forever to work through all the commands. So the very thing you're telling me I'm obligated to do, you won't tell me what it is. Or at least what you think it is. Why would any sane person sign on to a contract like that?

He wouldn't. He would read the contract. Don't forget the part that says ignorance is no excuse (it's in there).

1,269 posted on 07/14/2014 12:37:16 AM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: boatbums

Things might not be looking so well.

Loved one and myself were about to discuss national politics and events on our southern border, when she mentioned Ezekiel 7 and 8. I asked her what she meant and she said she didn’t know, other than that was the thought that had come to mind. She didn’t know what was in the 2 chapters.

After reading them, it’s not a pleasant spiritual communication/message.


1,270 posted on 07/14/2014 12:40:01 AM PDT by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: Springfield Reformer
The list of 613 commandments.

Looks like the Mormons have a bit of catching up to do!


The Rules

  1. Learn and obey all missionary rules.
  2. Keep your thoughts, words, and actions in harmony with the gospel message.
  3. Read only books, magazines, and other material authorized by the Church.
  4. Don't debate or argue.
  5. Center your mind on your mission.
  6. Dress conservatively. Elders: white shirts, conservative ties, and business suits. Sisters: conservative colors and skirts that cover your knees. No floor-length skirts or dresses.
  7. Cut your hair regularly.
  8. Keep your hair clean and neatly combed at all times in the approved style.
  9. Be neat and clean.
  10. Bathe frequently.
  11. Use deodorant.
  12. Polish your shoes.
  13. Iron your shirt and business suit.
  14. Arise at 6:30 A.M.
  15. Study for 2 hours every morning.
  16. Proselytize for 10 hours between 9:30 A.M. and 9:30 P.M.
  17. Turn off your lights at 10:30 P.M.
  18. Exercise regularly.
  19. Write in your journal regularly.
  20. Follow the "Missionary Gospel Study Program" (31157) for your personal study.
  21. Regularly study the Missionary Guide and the Discussions.
  22. Attend Sunday priesthood or Relief Society meetings, Sunday School, and sacrament meeting.
  23. Attend the general session of Stake Conference.
  24. Attend general conference broadcasts if available.
  25. Avoid all other church meetings unless you have a special assignment or are brining an investigator.
  26. Proselytize as much as possible on weekends and holidays because this is when you'll find people home.
  27. End your preparation day at 6:00 P.M. and proselytize from 6:00 P.M. to 9:30 P.M.
  28. Wear your missionary uniform in public on preparation day while not engaged in recreational activities.
  29. Arise at 6:30 on preparation day and study for 2 hours from the approved books.
  30. Take care of your physical preparation for the week on preparation day: wash your clothes, clean your apartment, wash your car, get your haircut, and shop for groceries.
  31. Write to your parents every week on preparation day.
  32. Write less frequently to your siblings, friends, and acquaintances.
  33. Don't communicate with any friends or acquaintances that are within or close to your mission boundaries, except as a part of official mission business.
  34. Plan safe, wholesome, and uplifting activities for preparation day.
  35. Stay with your companion during all activities.
  36. Do not go on road trips.
  37. Do not leave your assigned area without permission
  38. Do not watch television.
  39. Do not view unauthorized videocassettes.
  40. Do not listen to the radio.
  41. Do not listen to unauthorized audiocassettes or CD’s.
  42. Do not participate in musical groups.
  43. Do not participate in athletic teams.
  44. Do not sponsor athletic teams.
  45. Do not engage in contact sports.
  46. Do not engage in water sports.
  47. Do not engage in winter sports.
  48. Do not engage in motorcycling.
  49. Do not engage in horseback riding.
  50. Do not engage in mountain climbing.
  51. Do not embark on a private boat.
  52. Do not embark in a private airplane.
  53. Do not handle firearms.
  54. Do not handle explosives.
  55. Do not swim.
  56. Do not play full court basketball.
  57. Do not play basketball in leagues.
  58. Do not play basketball in tournaments.
  59. You may play half-court basketball.
  60. Never be alone.
  61. Seek advice from your mission president if your companion is "having difficulties".
  62. Be loyal to your companion.
  63. Ask your mission president for help if your companion doesn’t obey the rules.
  64. Pray with your companion every day.
  65. Study with your companion every day.
  66. Plan your work with your companion every day.
  67. Take time at least once a week for companionship inventory.
  68. Seek to be one in spirit and purpose and help each other succeed.
  69. Always address your companion as Elder or Sister.
  70. Sleep in the same bedroom as your companion.
  71. Do not sleep in the same bed as your companion.
  72. Do not arise before your companion.
  73. Do not retire after your companion. (apparently, being together is more important than getting the correct amount of sleep that your unique body requires.)
  74. Frequently study with your companion the Missionary Guide section on companions.
  75. Never be alone with anyone of the opposite sex.
  76. Never associate inappropriately with anyone of the opposite sex (conversely, they don't mention whether or not it is against the rules to associate inappropriately with anyone of the same sex).
  77. Do not flirt.
  78. Do not date.
  79. Do not communicate via phone or letter with anyone of the opposite sex living within or near mission boundaries.
  80. Do not visit a single or divorced person of the opposite sex unless accompanied by a couple or another adult member of your sex.
  81. Try to teach single investigators in a member’s home or have missionaries of the same sex teach them.
  82. Always follow the above rules, even if the situation seems harmless.
  83. Use the commitment pattern to get referrals from members.
  84. Keep your dinner visits with member briefs and during the customary dinner hour in the area.
  85. Remember to say thank you to those who feed you.
  86. Visit members and nonmembers only at appropriate times.
  87. Do not counsel or give medical treatment.
  88. Do not stay in the homes of people when they are on vacation.
  89. Only write letters to family members and friends at home.
  90. Do not telephone parents
  91. Do not telephone relatives.
  92. Do not telephone friends.
  93. Do not telephone girlfriends.
  94. Contact your mission president in case of an emergency.
  95. Take problems and questions to your mission president.
  96. Do not write to the President of the Church or to other General Authorities. Letters from missionaries to General Authorities are referred back to the mission president
  97. Respect the customs, traditions, and property of the people who you are trying to convert.
  98. Obey all mission rules.
  99. Obey the laws of the land.
  100. Do not get involved in politics.
  101. Do not get involved in commercial activities.
  102. Do not give any information about the area.
  103. Respect the customs and cultures of those who you are trying to convert to your own customs and culture.
  104. Respect the beliefs, practices, and sites of other religions.
  105. Do not say or write anything bad about the political and cultural circumstances where you serve.
  106. Do not become involved in adoption proceedings.
  107. Do not suggest or encourage emigration. (This rule is a bit ironic, given the now-defunct doctrine of gathering the believers to Zion)
  108. Be courteous.
  109. Provide community service.
  110. Do not provide community service that isn’t approved by your mission president.
  111. Do not provide more than 4 hours a week of community service.
  112. Do not provide community service during the evening, weekend or holidays—those are peek proselytizing times.
  113. Your mission president must approve your housing.
  114. Keep your housing unit clean.
  115. Do not live with single or divorced people of the opposite sex.
  116. Do not live where the spouse is frequently absent.
  117. Your living unit must have a private bath and entrance.
  118. You may occasionally fast for a special reason, but generally the monthly fast is sufficient.
  119. Do not fast longer than 24 hours at a time.
  120. Do not ask friends, relatives, and members to join in special fasts for investigators.
  121. Maintain your health.
  122. Eat a healthy diet.
  123. Sleep from 10:30 to 6:30.
  124. Follow the approved exercise program.
  125. Keep your body, clothes, dishes, linens, towels and housing unit clean.
  126. Dispose of your garbage properly and promptly.
  127. Follow the safety rules for all of your stuff.
  128. Seek medical care if you are in an accident or become sick.
  129. Be immunized.
  130. Spend your money only on things relating to your mission.
  131. Budget your money carefully.
  132. Keep a record of what you spend.
  133. Do not spend more than your companion.
  134. Do not loan money.
  135. Do not borrow money.
  136. Keep a reserve fund of $50 to $100 at all times for transfers.
  137. Pay your bills before leaving an area.
  138. Pay cash for all resale literature and supplies ordered from the mission office.
  139. Do not waste money on souvenirs.
  140. Do not waste money on unnecessary items.
  141. Be a frugal photographer.
  142. Do not accumulate excess baggage.
  143. Obey custom laws and regulations.
  144. Pay fast offerings each fast Sunday to the bishop or branch president where you serve.
  145. Pay tithing on outside sources of income (i.e. interest) to your home bishop or branch president.
  146. Evaluate your funds a few months before the end of your mission. If you have more than you need, ask that less be sent so that you can return home without excess money.
  147. Do not drive without a license.
  148. Drive only Church-owned vehicles.
  149. Do not drive members’ cars.
  150. Do not drive nonmembers’ cars.
  151. Do not give rides to members or investigators in Church-owned cars.
  152. Use cars only on approved mission business.
  153. Use cars only within the assigned geographical area.
  154. Be conscious of safety at all times.
  155. Drive defensively.
  156. Wear your seat belt.
  157. Pray for the Lord’s protection while driving.
  158. If your companion is driving, assist him or her.
  159. Do not tamper with the vehicle’s odometer.
  160. Know bicycle safety rules.
  161. Use extreme caution on your bicycle.
  162. Do not ride your bicycle after dark.
  163. Do not ride your bicycle in heavy traffic.
  164. Do not ride your bicycle in adverse weather conditions.
  165. Go directly to your new area when transferred.
  166. Find your new companion without delay when transferred.
  167. Have a maximum of two suitcases and a briefcase.

1,271 posted on 07/14/2014 5:10:31 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: roamer_1
But it is not right.

This is ALWAYS the case; isn't it...

Only WE are doing it RIGHT!!!!


1,272 posted on 07/14/2014 5:11:50 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie
Fake but accurate.
1,273 posted on 07/14/2014 5:13:21 AM PDT by Utah Binger (Southern Utah where the world comes to see America)
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To: roamer_1
Better to go through the entire Torah on your own and discern for yourself.

Judges 17:6 KJV

In those days there was no king in Israel,
but every man did that which was right in his own eyes.

1,274 posted on 07/14/2014 5:24:44 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: roamer_1
And another thing to bear in mind - all commandments are not for all people

Some folks seem to either forget; or never knew; this fact.

1,275 posted on 07/14/2014 5:25:28 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: roamer_1
He would read the contract.

A contract is binding ONLY upon those who are named in it; right?

1,276 posted on 07/14/2014 5:26:24 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie
Only WE are doing it RIGHT!!!!

No, I mean it isn't right. The verses in the link given are not Biblical quotes.

1,277 posted on 07/14/2014 8:09:51 AM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: Elsie; roamer_1

To be fair to Roamer, each item listed is supported with citation of a Biblical passage. Those are the quotes I am concerned with. But it was sloppy of me to say it the way I did. Sorry about that.

Anyway, your pint about who is named in the contract is well taken. Moses’ contract names Israel after the flesh. I have a new and better contract, secured by the blood of Jesus in the New Covenant. So Roamer, if you want me to break that contract and go back to the one Paul said I was dead to, you need to do better than just tell me to go read it. I have read it. It doesn’t work anymore. There is no severability clause. If I go under that law, I’m obligated to the whole thing, top to bottom, even the impossible parts, like offering sacrifices at the temple. Why do you suppose God shut down the temple, knowing it would make Torah observance per Moses impossible? Because He had established a new contract, with better terms. So if you want me back under that old contract, the burden is on you to show me what obligations you think I should be under. If you’re not willing to put your cards all on the table and tell me what you think Torah is, then what am I to make of that?

Peace,

SR


1,278 posted on 07/14/2014 9:49:22 AM PDT by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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To: Springfield Reformer
To be fair to Roamer, each item listed is supported with citation of a Biblical passage. Those are the quotes I am concerned with. But it was sloppy of me to say it the way I did. Sorry about that.

np. but perhaps you might peruse those links and judge for yourself whether the passage indicated actually supports the 'saying' derived from it. No doubt many will be just fine, but others will make you go, "HUH?"

Anyway, your pint about who is named in the contract is well taken. Moses’ contract names Israel after the flesh.

Right... all twelve tribes... 10 of which are dispersed among us.

I have a new and better contract, secured by the blood of Jesus in the New Covenant.

Right... which ratifies within itself the Mosaic covenant, and every other covenant there before.

So Roamer, if you want me to break that contract and go back to the one Paul said I was dead to, you need to do better than just tell me to go read it.

No, I don't... All I can do is tell you - If you don't do anything about it, that's your business.

I have read it. It doesn’t work anymore. There is no severability clause. If I go under that law, I’m obligated to the whole thing, top to bottom, even the impossible parts, like offering sacrifices at the temple. Why do you suppose God shut down the temple, knowing it would make Torah observance per Moses impossible?

Why then have the Jews been able to keep Torah for the last two thousand years? And it is simply specious to claim that you or I have to keep the portions of Torah that are meant for priests, or government... According to what you seem to be saying, YOU as that shopkeeper MUST stone that murderer, regardless of any other thing, because the Torah demands it - That would also mean that YOU must provide his trial too... It is simply absurd, and no right reading of Torah would demand such. But, knock yourself out...

Because He had established a new contract, with better terms. So if you want me back under that old contract, the burden is on you to show me what obligations you think I should be under. If you’re not willing to put your cards all on the table and tell me what you think Torah is, then what am I to make of that?

I have already told you - ALL of Torah is Torah. Whatever of it is yours to do, that DO.

1,279 posted on 07/14/2014 10:02:55 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: roamer_1
SR:Anyway, your pint about who is named in the contract is well taken. Moses’ contract names Israel after the flesh.
RM: Right... all twelve tribes... 10 of which are dispersed among us.


Hmmm... hint of British Israelism maybe? WWCOG being channeled here? And as theories go, is about as speculative as it gets. No grounds for obligation visible there.

SR:I have a new and better contract, secured by the blood of Jesus in the New Covenant.
RM:Right... which ratifies within itself the Mosaic covenant, and every other covenant there before. 


No, that's not a ratification. Principle of mutual exclusion. You can't have a new contract that is fundamentally replacing the old and recapitulating the old at the same time, especially when we know from Jesus Himself the two are NOT compatible. In contract law, to bring all the terms of a previous agreement forward you would need an incorporation clause. Matthew 5:17 is a sunset clause issued during the last days of the Old Covenant, so its not even part of the New Covenant per se. Furthermore, even if one granted the premise of continuity past the terminus of the sunset clause (which makes no sense), the applicable parties under the full rigor of Moses are still just God and national Israel, those named in the Old Covenant contract, and only for as long as the individual provisions in question remain unfulfilled. That's not the contract Christians are under.

(Sidebar here: This is why it is critical to define Torah to painful detail. Prophecy is not legal code. Unfulfilled prophecy has no bearing on whether the legal provisions foreshadowing Christ were fulfilled.  Everything we are debating about was fulfilled in Christ. To prove that wrong, you would have to define Torah more exactly than you have so far.)

SR: So Roamer, if you want me to break that contract and go back to the one Paul said I was dead to, you need to do better than just tell me to go read it.
RM: No, I don't... All I can do is tell you - If you don't do anything about it, that's your business.


Yes you do. Paul and much in the New Covent specification says we are free of the Old Covenant to the extent it foreshadowed Christ. If you want to convince me, you need to tell me what this "easy" Torah is because I don't see it. I see a law which, while itself good and reflective of the goodness of the divine nature, puts me in the position of death and eternal doom. The New Covenant undoes that, because as I identify with Christ in His death, I die to the law. The law no longer condemns me. It can't. I'm dead to it, and alive to God.  

Why then have the Jews been able to keep Torah for the last two thousand years?

But they haven't.  God took away the sacrifice and now no one can keep Torah under Moses. No one gave the rabbis permission to just say, "oh well, let's just be nice now instead of sacrifice." That's a unilateral man-generated modification to the law of the contract. It voids the contract. Furthermore, the Jewish religion still rejects God's Messiah. Is that compatible with Torah observance?  They have retained a form of godliness, but have forsaken the power of God. I respect Jewish people as individuals, as I would any other people.  But I do not see them keeping Torah properly. Not at all.

And it is simply specious to claim that you or I have to keep the portions of Torah that are meant for priests, or government... According to what you seem to be saying, YOU as that shopkeeper MUST stone that murderer, regardless of any other thing, because the Torah demands it - That would also mean that YOU must provide his trial too... It is simply absurd, and no right reading of Torah would demand such. But, knock yourself out...

No, there are principles of statutory interpretation involved here that are as ancient as law itself. I have heard repeatedly from the HR community that the explicit statements of the law are immutable. That's false. The law of the sacrifice is explicitly stated, is it not? Yet it is not only mutable, it can be cast aside as nothing when the inconvenience of a missing temple is encountered.

In addition, as a matter of statutory interpretation, if you have a complete, interdependent system, with no specific provision for severing parts of the law out of "inconvenience," then that entire statutory construct must stand or fall as a whole. There is a rational reason for this. You cannot impose rules for individuals that cannot be supported by the full infrastructure. And you cannot expect ordinary people to try and sort through the wreckage of a terminated theocracy and figure out which parts and pieces might be ongoing personal obligations and which can be set aside. You think it's easy, but if you would consider the true magnitude of the task you are really imposing I do not think you would find it so easy. This is why I am fairly begging you to define Torah in practical, spelled out terms. It's only easy when it's vague. Like the first draft specifications for that new application. "App will do bla bla bla." But once you start into really trying to nail it all down, interfacing legacy data, complete use case coverage, meeting all requirements PERFECTLY, that it begins to look a bit harder than at first.

I have already told you - ALL of Torah is Torah. Whatever of it is yours to do, that DO.

Except for the parts that you say don't apply. I am sorry, but that appears to me to be nothing but a useless tautology.   Have you ever had a client who says, "just make it work!" And you say, "what do you want it to so, specifically?" And they say, "Whatever you can make it do, then make it do that." Utterly unusable. You know I'm right. That's the nightmare client, and we've both had him (or her), I'm sure. The project bogs down again and again because you can never get the client to commit to a specific and detailed reality. Those are the projects that are guaranteed to fail.  Guaranteed. Walking in, you know you'll get paid and fail anyway. I don't take on those projects, and I studiously avoid those clients when I can.

But here the stakes are eversomuch higher. We are talking about eternal consequences. Eternity in Hell at worst, or perhaps "merely" failure to please God as a believer. Based on a specification that amounts to saying, "Whatever, just do Torah, whatever that is."

Well no.  If that's the pitch, I'm sticking with the New Contract, which really is new because it's different from the Old Contract. We die to the law when we become believers in Christ, because we follow Him in death, and in resurrection, and so pass out from under the law:

Rom 7:4-6  Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.  (5)  For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.  (6)  But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
This is Torah for the New Covenant believer, to have faith in Christ, and be renewed by the Spirit, being filled with His love and all manner of spiritual fruit, which the Old Covenant had no power to do:
Heb 8:7  For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
New wine and old wine skins do not mix. But you are in effect teaching the old wine skins are incorporated into the new wine skin, in direct contradiction to the explcit teaching of Christ.  The New Covenant Torah is the royal law of love. We are done with the training wheels. How odd it would be to see an adult riding around with training wheels, proclaiming to everyone he met that we should all go back to using training wheels. But for everything there is a time and season, and there comes a time to internalize your sense of balance and set those training wheels aside.

This is possible and does NOT offend God, because God can change His own law. For example, according to Jesus, divorce was alien to Torah before Moses, but was permitted under Moses because of the hardness of human hearts:
Mat 19:7-8  They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?  (8)  He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
God can change His own law respecting worship:
1Ch 28:11-20  Then David gave to Solomon his son the pattern of the porch, and of the houses thereof, and of the treasuries thereof, and of the upper chambers thereof, and of the inner parlours thereof, and of the place of the mercy seat,  (12)  And the pattern of all that he had by the spirit, of the courts of the house of the LORD, and of all the chambers round about, of the treasuries of the house of God, and of the treasuries of the dedicated things:  (13)  Also for the courses of the priests and the Levites, and for all the work of the service of the house of the LORD, and for all the vessels of service in the house of the LORD.  (14)  He gave of gold by weight for things of gold, for all instruments of all manner of service; silver also for all instruments of silver by weight, for all instruments of every kind of service:  (15)  Even the weight for the candlesticks of gold, and for their lamps of gold, by weight for every candlestick, and for the lamps thereof: and for the candlesticks of silver by weight, both for the candlestick, and also for the lamps thereof, according to the use of every candlestick.  (16)  And by weight he gave gold for the tables of shewbread, for every table; and likewise silver for the tables of silver:  (17)  Also pure gold for the fleshhooks, and the bowls, and the cups: and for the golden basons he gave gold by weight for every bason; and likewise silver by weight for every bason of silver:  (18)  And for the altar of incense refined gold by weight; and gold for the pattern of the chariot of the cherubims, that spread out their wings, and covered the ark of the covenant of the LORD.  (19)  All this, said David, the LORD made me understand in writing by his hand upon me, even all the works of this pattern.  (20)  And David said to Solomon his son, Be strong and of good courage, and do it: fear not, nor be dismayed: for the LORD God, even my God, will be with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee, until thou hast finished all the work for the service of the house of the LORD.
The pattern of the new temple service was given to David directly from the Lord, to be built by Solomon, but it abrogates the pattern of the wilderness tabernacle, which was also Torah, given explicitly and in great detail. Set aside just like that. Because the Lawgiver declared it so, due to a change in circumstances.

In the New Covenant we learn that the two greatest commandments are to love God with everything we've got and love our neighbor as we love ourselves, that the law in fact is fulfilled in these two commandments. This love we also learn is made possible, not by the dead letter of the Mosaic law, but by the spirit of Christ living within us, which life of the Spirit is only possible precisely because we have died to the law in Christ and been raised in newness of life, with the great principles of the law written on our heart, just as Jeremiah prophesied. To go back under that lesser law from which Jesus has set us free is open defiance of the New Covenant Torah. It is disobedience to Christ, who has fulfilled the law on our behalf, and satisfied the all the terms of the sunset clause, allowing us to live in the light of the New Covenant:
Luk 24:44-49  And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.  (45)  Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,  (46)  And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:  (47)  And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.  (48)  And ye are witnesses of these things.  (49)  And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

Peace,

SR


1,280 posted on 07/15/2014 1:29:44 AM PDT by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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