Posted on 06/24/2014 2:13:28 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
No, they are not. As an instance, you will find no where in Torah that one cannot cook milk and meat together (There is a really easy one).
Well, the author does label that one specifically as halakhah. But that still leaves 612, except for the handful that Maimonides neglected altogether. I’ll have to dig those up later. So I’d need an app to keep track of 612 commands. Got anything else you can eliminate?
Blinders...
Nice spin.
One thing you lack...
That would take forever... Better to go through the entire Torah on your own and discern for yourself. Although Karaite links might be helpful to you - Karaites are to Judaism what Protestantism is to the Roman church - I don't entirely agree with them either (they too are insular, which is faulty according to the design of Torah), but I think you will find much to chew on through them, and I think you are learned and open-minded enough to ponder... The Karaites reject Talmudic/Rabbinic tradition. So they are likely to be more on point wrt their interpretation of the commandments.
And another thing to bear in mind - all commandments are not for all people - Some are personal, some are national, some regard the priests, some are direct strictures, some are guides to good living... The things beyond your personal control are not yours to do.
It is a remarkable ruleset to govern nations, religion, health, welfare, war, relationships, contracts, and personal... etc. You leave me with the inference that it is all too much, but I would submit that it is quite concise compared to the laws of any other kingdom/nation you might compare it to.
Where is that in the law? Or is that a modification to the law that you or perhaps a rabbinical authority offered up to accommodate for the difficulty in actually complying?
Again, this is nothing personal to you. You're a decent chap to talk to. So don't take this the wrong way. But I'm an attorney (and a programmer - odd combo, I know). I work with contracts, among other things. And one of the basic principles of contract law is you can't hold somebody to a contract unless all the important terms and conditions are spelled out. By your refusal to elaborate on what constitutes the exact content of Torah, you are asking me to sign on to a contract where I don't know, and maybe can't ever know my obligations. You yourself said it would take forever to work through all the commands. So the very thing you're telling me I'm obligated to do, you won't tell me what it is. Or at least what you think it is. Why would any sane person sign on to a contract like that?
But woe unto you Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and every herb, and pass over justice and the love of God: but these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Woe unto you Pharisees! for ye love the chief seats in the synagogues, and the salutations in the marketplaces. Woe unto you! for ye are as the tombs which appear not, and the men that walk over them know it not.
And one of the lawyers answering saith unto him, Teacher, in saying this thou reproachest us also. And he said, Woe unto you lawyers also! for ye load men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers. Woe unto you! for ye build the tombs of the prophets, and your fathers killed them. So ye are witnesses and consent unto the works of your fathers: for they killed them, and ye build their tombs. Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send unto them prophets and apostles; and some of them they shall kill and persecute; that the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; from the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zachariah, who perished between the altar and the sanctuary: yea, I say unto you, it shall be required of this generation. Woe unto you lawyers! for ye took away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.
And when he was come out from thence, the scribes and the Pharisees began to press upon him vehemently, and to provoke him to speak of many things; laying wait for him, to catch something out of his mouth. (Luke 11:42-54)
Where is that in the law? Or is that a modification to the law that you or perhaps a rabbinical authority offered up to accommodate for the difficulty in actually complying?
No, nothing like that - It's just inherent in the document. As an example, you are a shopkeeper in ancient Israel... You see a murder occur. Now, Torah says not to let a murderer live in your midst - And one must stone a murderer... That doesn't mean YOU get to start pitching stones at the guy. Torah also says there has to be a trial. There has to be another witness. There has to be a judiciary authority applied. So that part is beyond your personal control.
Personally, YOU would have to report it, and give an honest testimony, and keep yourself and your testimony free of being swayed by any influence... You may be called to throw that stone eventually, once guilt is determined according to jurist prudence...
Likewise, YOU would have *nothing* to do with the running of the Temple, and the dress and deportment of the priests... Now, maybe some priest may not have washed his feet, as is necessary according to Torah... No doubt you could inform him of his mistake, and no doubt you could report him to his betters, but it is not up to YOU to execute any judgement in the thing.
So since Torah speaks to a nation, there is an inherent distribution of powers which certainly reaches beyond the individual. Weights and standards, product assurance, law enforcement, judiciary, military, priestly duties, etc... All of these are beyond the scope of the individual. He cannot enforce these things.
But the individual also is addressed - Hygiene, Kosher, personal honesty, personal integrity personal honor within the larger scope of the whole - YOU, as a shopkeeper, have no control over standards, weights, and measures themselves, BUT YOU have a personal instruction not to shave your weights, not to put your thumb on the scale... to conduct yourself honestly in your contracts, etc.
But I'm an attorney (and a programmer - odd combo, I know).
Hah! I am a programmer too - Re-read Paul and think 'logic bomb'... Sorry... it's an aside, but you just might understand me. Likewise, look at the whole Bible as software - You will come to find out that all the variables are assigned and defined (like almost always) IN THE BEGINNING. The software won't run without Torah.
And as an attorney, put aside your faith, and look at the covenants (to include the inheritance). Look at how they are constructed, couched one inside the next... Look at what is declared explicitly. You and I both know explicit statements stand upon their own, and cannot be altered. Look at where the obligation lies... I will be surprised if you cannot see what I see.
I work with contracts, among other things. And one of the basic principles of contract law is you can't hold somebody to a contract unless all the important terms and conditions are spelled out. By your refusal to elaborate on what constitutes the exact content of Torah, you are asking me to sign on to a contract where I don't know, and maybe can't ever know my obligations.
Nonsense. Read the contract. No, really, DO. I cannot spell out all those things in this short missive - I cannot even summarize it here... I CAN tell you that if you cut to the chase, and head right for Leviticus and Deuteronomy, you will undoubtedly miss the important stuff. And then read the writings and the prophets for more clarity. The OT is BIG, dude. Layer upon layer, all interwoven... If you try to skim over it, you will not see what it says. It is a simply awesome document.
And while IANAL, I was a contractor for most of my life, so I can read a contract too - And I would never be satisfied to have someone tell me what the contract says... Summaries are nice and all, but you and I both know who has to read the contract. I might need a lawyer to help me understand it, but I, me personally, had better understand it completely before I sign anything.
You yourself said it would take forever to work through all the commands. So the very thing you're telling me I'm obligated to do, you won't tell me what it is. Or at least what you think it is. Why would any sane person sign on to a contract like that?
He wouldn't. He would read the contract. Don't forget the part that says ignorance is no excuse (it's in there).
Things might not be looking so well.
Loved one and myself were about to discuss national politics and events on our southern border, when she mentioned Ezekiel 7 and 8. I asked her what she meant and she said she didn’t know, other than that was the thought that had come to mind. She didn’t know what was in the 2 chapters.
After reading them, it’s not a pleasant spiritual communication/message.
Looks like the Mormons have a bit of catching up to do!
This is ALWAYS the case; isn't it...
Judges 17:6 KJV
In those days there was no king in Israel,
but every man did that which was right in his own eyes.
Some folks seem to either forget; or never knew; this fact.
A contract is binding ONLY upon those who are named in it; right?
No, I mean it isn't right. The verses in the link given are not Biblical quotes.
To be fair to Roamer, each item listed is supported with citation of a Biblical passage. Those are the quotes I am concerned with. But it was sloppy of me to say it the way I did. Sorry about that.
Anyway, your pint about who is named in the contract is well taken. Moses’ contract names Israel after the flesh. I have a new and better contract, secured by the blood of Jesus in the New Covenant. So Roamer, if you want me to break that contract and go back to the one Paul said I was dead to, you need to do better than just tell me to go read it. I have read it. It doesn’t work anymore. There is no severability clause. If I go under that law, I’m obligated to the whole thing, top to bottom, even the impossible parts, like offering sacrifices at the temple. Why do you suppose God shut down the temple, knowing it would make Torah observance per Moses impossible? Because He had established a new contract, with better terms. So if you want me back under that old contract, the burden is on you to show me what obligations you think I should be under. If you’re not willing to put your cards all on the table and tell me what you think Torah is, then what am I to make of that?
Peace,
SR
np. but perhaps you might peruse those links and judge for yourself whether the passage indicated actually supports the 'saying' derived from it. No doubt many will be just fine, but others will make you go, "HUH?"
Anyway, your pint about who is named in the contract is well taken. Moses’ contract names Israel after the flesh.
Right... all twelve tribes... 10 of which are dispersed among us.
I have a new and better contract, secured by the blood of Jesus in the New Covenant.
Right... which ratifies within itself the Mosaic covenant, and every other covenant there before.
So Roamer, if you want me to break that contract and go back to the one Paul said I was dead to, you need to do better than just tell me to go read it.
No, I don't... All I can do is tell you - If you don't do anything about it, that's your business.
I have read it. It doesn’t work anymore. There is no severability clause. If I go under that law, I’m obligated to the whole thing, top to bottom, even the impossible parts, like offering sacrifices at the temple. Why do you suppose God shut down the temple, knowing it would make Torah observance per Moses impossible?
Why then have the Jews been able to keep Torah for the last two thousand years? And it is simply specious to claim that you or I have to keep the portions of Torah that are meant for priests, or government... According to what you seem to be saying, YOU as that shopkeeper MUST stone that murderer, regardless of any other thing, because the Torah demands it - That would also mean that YOU must provide his trial too... It is simply absurd, and no right reading of Torah would demand such. But, knock yourself out...
Because He had established a new contract, with better terms. So if you want me back under that old contract, the burden is on you to show me what obligations you think I should be under. If you’re not willing to put your cards all on the table and tell me what you think Torah is, then what am I to make of that?
I have already told you - ALL of Torah is Torah. Whatever of it is yours to do, that DO.
I have already told you - ALL of Torah is Torah. Whatever of it is yours to do, that DO.
Except for the parts that you say don't apply. I am sorry, but that appears to me to be nothing but a useless tautology. Have you ever had a client who says, "just make it work!" And you say, "what do you want it to so, specifically?" And they say, "Whatever you can make it do, then make it do that." Utterly unusable. You know I'm right. That's the nightmare client, and we've both had him (or her), I'm sure. The project bogs down again and again because you can never get the client to commit to a specific and detailed reality. Those are the projects that are guaranteed to fail. Guaranteed. Walking in, you know you'll get paid and fail anyway. I don't take on those projects, and I studiously avoid those clients when I can.
But here the stakes are eversomuch higher. We are talking about eternal consequences. Eternity in Hell at worst, or perhaps "merely" failure to please God as a believer. Based on a specification that amounts to saying, "Whatever, just do Torah, whatever that is."
Well no. If that's the pitch, I'm sticking with the New Contract, which really is new because it's different from the Old Contract. We die to the law when we become believers in Christ, because we follow Him in death, and in resurrection, and so pass out from under the law:
Rom 7:4-6 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. (5) For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. (6) But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.This is Torah for the New Covenant believer, to have faith in Christ, and be renewed by the Spirit, being filled with His love and all manner of spiritual fruit, which the Old Covenant had no power to do:
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.New wine and old wine skins do not mix. But you are in effect teaching the old wine skins are incorporated into the new wine skin, in direct contradiction to the explcit teaching of Christ. The New Covenant Torah is the royal law of love. We are done with the training wheels. How odd it would be to see an adult riding around with training wheels, proclaiming to everyone he met that we should all go back to using training wheels. But for everything there is a time and season, and there comes a time to internalize your sense of balance and set those training wheels aside.
Mat 19:7-8 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? (8) He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.God can change His own law respecting worship:
1Ch 28:11-20 Then David gave to Solomon his son the pattern of the porch, and of the houses thereof, and of the treasuries thereof, and of the upper chambers thereof, and of the inner parlours thereof, and of the place of the mercy seat, (12) And the pattern of all that he had by the spirit, of the courts of the house of the LORD, and of all the chambers round about, of the treasuries of the house of God, and of the treasuries of the dedicated things: (13) Also for the courses of the priests and the Levites, and for all the work of the service of the house of the LORD, and for all the vessels of service in the house of the LORD. (14) He gave of gold by weight for things of gold, for all instruments of all manner of service; silver also for all instruments of silver by weight, for all instruments of every kind of service: (15) Even the weight for the candlesticks of gold, and for their lamps of gold, by weight for every candlestick, and for the lamps thereof: and for the candlesticks of silver by weight, both for the candlestick, and also for the lamps thereof, according to the use of every candlestick. (16) And by weight he gave gold for the tables of shewbread, for every table; and likewise silver for the tables of silver: (17) Also pure gold for the fleshhooks, and the bowls, and the cups: and for the golden basons he gave gold by weight for every bason; and likewise silver by weight for every bason of silver: (18) And for the altar of incense refined gold by weight; and gold for the pattern of the chariot of the cherubims, that spread out their wings, and covered the ark of the covenant of the LORD. (19) All this, said David, the LORD made me understand in writing by his hand upon me, even all the works of this pattern. (20) And David said to Solomon his son, Be strong and of good courage, and do it: fear not, nor be dismayed: for the LORD God, even my God, will be with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee, until thou hast finished all the work for the service of the house of the LORD.The pattern of the new temple service was given to David directly from the Lord, to be built by Solomon, but it abrogates the pattern of the wilderness tabernacle, which was also Torah, given explicitly and in great detail. Set aside just like that. Because the Lawgiver declared it so, due to a change in circumstances.
Luk 24:44-49 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. (45) Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, (46) And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: (47) And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. (48) And ye are witnesses of these things. (49) And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.Peace,
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