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To: jimmyray
Semantics, I say. Jesus instituted Baptism and the Commemoration of the bread and wine, which I trust you are not denying?

Well, yes I am denying... sort of. Neither could have been newly instituted without breaking Torah. Both, as practiced today, are pagan in origin - Less of a problem in the greater Protestant sphere, as both are (rightly) considered symbolic, but still, it is corrupting the images which were specified early on (Torah). For the Roman church, since they retain so much magick juju around their sacraments, it is far worse.

Jesus gave us a new command (John 13:34) to go with the new covenant (Matt 26:28)

... and as with every covenant, Moses was ratified into the 'new' covenant (Matt 5:17-20), and since every covenant is included in Moses (likewise ratified)...

1. What is a "sacrament" in your mind, the RC definition as posted in the Council of Trent?

Incidental to the argument, but any good dictionary will suffice.

2. How does that relate to "adding" to the Torah?

EVEN IF one were to suggest that things changed at the cross, these 'instituted things' were instituted prior to the cross, wherein Yeshua's function was as the sinless lamb, and as the Great Prophet who must be listened to... For him to be sinless, he cannot add a single thing to Torah, and for him to be listened to, he cannot have spoken anything against Torah. Period. To admit otherwise is to make him false. Since Torah cannot be added to or taken from, he cannot have 'instituted' anything.

And btw, John the Baptist was 'baptizing' before Yeshua, so it cannot have been instituted by Him.

70 posted on 06/23/2014 12:23:04 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: roamer_1

Are you breaking new ground here?

What denomination are you?


71 posted on 06/23/2014 12:34:22 PM PDT by rbmillerjr (Reagan conservative: All 3 Pillars)
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To: roamer_1
Well, now, we are arguing semantics, LOL, and I agree with you on the major points, especially the "majic juju"!!

However, Jesus did tell his disciples to take the Bread and Wine in remembrance of him (1 Cor 11:23-28), and He did command his disciples in Matt 28:19 to "...make disciples...baptizing in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit..."

The reason I argue that the issue can be a semantical one is this, several definitions for the word "sacrament" exist, and one's definition definitely defines one's position on the matter. To wit, the Oxford online dictionary lists 4

1.0 A religious ceremony or act of the Christian Church that is regarded as an outward and visible sign of inward and spiritual divine grace, in particular.
1.1(In the Roman Catholic and many Orthodox Churches) the rites of baptism, confirmation, the Eucharist, penance, anointing of the sick, ordination, and matrimony.
1.2(Among Protestants) baptism and the Eucharist.
1.3 (also the Blessed Sacrament or the Holy Sacrament) (In Roman Catholic use) the consecrated elements of the Eucharist, especially the Host
1.4 A thing of mysterious and sacred significance; a religious symbol.

That said, the RCC has a definite meaning as conveyed in the Council of Trent that most Protestants or Baptists reject outright.

73 posted on 06/23/2014 12:50:13 PM PDT by jimmyray
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