How Hitler and Judas could end up in heaven

The Week ^ | 06/04/2014 | Damon Linker

[SeekAndFind]

RE: The parable is not about how long he will be there. It’s not brought up.

OK, so we both agree that this teaching ( I still won’t use the word parable ) CANNOT be use to support any idea of the DURATION of punishment.

However, can we agree that CONSCIOUS PUNISHMENT does exist in a SPECIFIC PLACE?

[cuban leaf]

Since you are arguing that punishment is not eternal, how can we glean it from THIS particular teaching?

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We can’t. The argument that is being made is that this teaching is not about the eternal fate of the lost or the saved.

Those that use it as a literal story about our eternal condition are missing the point of the parable. That’s the point. That is not what the parable is about, whether the rich man in the story is there a year, an eternity, or just during superbowl weekend.

[cuban leaf]

However, can we agree that CONSCIOUS PUNISHMENT does exist in a SPECIFIC PLACE?

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Sort of.

There will be weaping and gnashing of teeth, but I see that in the same way there was weaping and gnashing of teeth when some men had a noose hung around their neck. And the gnashing of teeth wasn’t in sadness or pain. It was in anger.

And then the lever is pulled.

[SeekAndFind]

RE: We can’t. The argument that is being made is that this teaching is not about the eternal fate of the lost or the saved.

My argument in bringing it up though is to show that there IS conscious punishment.

Now regarding whether or not punishment is eternal, let’s talk about a separate verse.

Matthew 25:41-46:

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

[cuban leaf]

My argument in bringing it up though is to show that there IS conscious punishment.

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You are the “others” I was referring to, then.

[cuban leaf]

And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

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So both are eternal conditions. One is life and the other is punishment.

Hmmmm. This punishment is, apparently, NOT life. I wonder what it could be. ;-)

[PieterCasparzen]

I find no Scripture to support salvation working differently for different people;

You may have to explain your reasoning to me, on that one. Salvation (which is offered to all--cf. Titus 2:11, 1 Timothy 2:4, etc.) certainly worked differently for Judas Iscariot than it worked for the good thief on the cross!

I was unclear, we're talking about two different things. When I used the phrase "salvation working" I was referring to God's Law Word setting forth who is saved and who is not, i.e., how God's Law "works" or how God's Law describes his salvific plan. When you commented on my use of the phrase "salvation working", your response treated the phrase to mean how individual people's salvation or damnation "works out" for people in history on an individual basis.

I'm making a very simple point about God's justice. Perhaps an imperfect but simple analogy:

We have laws in New Jersey. We have judges and courts. That is the legal system.

We have people in NJ. They all have their own stories of their lives. Some found themselves participating in our legal system as defendants.

Do our NJ judges treat every defendant the same UNDER THE LAW, or do our NJ judges favor some defendants over others based on who the defendant is, i.e., an uncle, a nephew, a friend, etc. ? That is the question of justice respecting persons.

God's Law Word reveals the God's salvific plan to us. The judicial fundamentals of the plan: everyone falls short of the glory of God, thus everyone merits damnation. Everyone therefore must rely solely on the merits of Christ's atoning sacrifice on the cross for salvation.

In the Bible, there is simply no verse that says some relative or friend gets into heaven without appealing to Christ's sacrifice on the cross. There are no payoffs, so special side deals, no winks, no nods. There are no excuses, no "see what I did here", or "but I always did this". Nothing can be traded or offered in exchange for salvation. All those worldly rewards will be utterly useless when one faces judgement.

Yet those who are saved, the true believers in Christ, who appeal only to Christ's atoning sacrifice - the Bible tells us they belong to Christ, they are his, and they will have lived accordingly, no surprise. Yet even so they will NOT insult Christ to make reference to anything but his shed blood and their belief in him as their Lord and Savior as the only hope of their salvation.

It is crystal clear: God does NOT JUDICIALLY favor one person over another in terms of what merits a man his salvation. Simply put, no man merits salvation.

If God showed favoritism judicially his justice would be imperfect, God forbid. No, his law is perfect.

Psalm 19:7 "The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple."

Wow, I started out trying to just get agreement on a simple point and wound up preaching. Pardon me. I know this takes so much time and we have such a wide gap between us, even so, at least we're civil.

[metmom]

Some people teach that after death, God will destroy or annihilate the souls of those who don’t believe and that they will never experience eternal torment.

I think it’s just a rationalization they use to comfort themselves that if they don’t believe, they will not suffer torment for eternity.

[cuban leaf]

Some people teach that after death, God will destroy or annihilate the souls of those who don’t believe and that they will never experience eternal torment.

I think it’s just a rationalization they use to comfort themselves that if they don’t believe, they will not suffer torment for eternity.

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I’m one of those people but no, it is not a rationalization and as Christ’s I’m not worried about it. Rather, I studied the issue and this is the position I’ve come to accept. I used to believe it was eternal torment simply because I was a new Christian and it is what “more knowledgable” Christians told me. The more I learned of the personality of God from reading His word, the more problems I had with it. And then when I actually studied the subject I changed my opinion.

Strongly.

In fact, I think the turn or burn message harms a LOT of people. It is not a benign false teaching (as if there were such a thing).

[cuban leaf]

Some people teach that after death, God will destroy or annihilate the souls of those who don’t believe and that they will never experience eternal torment.

I think it’s just a rationalization they use to comfort themselves that if they don’t believe, they will not suffer torment for eternity.

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If you believe that God will put those who are not his into a position of being eternal torment, this describes your god (from this site - http://jeremyandchristine.com/articles/eternal.php):

Suppose for a moment that a wonderful man—Mr. Right, if you will—offers a marriage proposal to the woman he loves. “Marry me,” he says, “and I will give you a life like you’ve never dreamed of before. You will be loved with the greatest commitment and passion that any woman has ever known. I will give you the finest house with all of the wonderful things you’ve ever wanted, and you will be happy for the rest of your days!”

Now suppose the woman is very flattered by the proposal, but is uncertain about whether or not she is ready for such a commitment. Asking for a few more days to think it over, Mr. Right answers, “You are welcome to take more time, but it’s only fair that I warn you what will happen if you decline my generous offer. Your only option, other than spending paradise with me, is to be thrown into my underground dungeon, have your eyes gouged from their sockets, and be subjected to unimaginable pain every hour, on the hour, for the rest of your long, miserable life.”

What do you suppose would be going through the young woman’s mind at a time like this? I imagine that would change the way she feels about the man considerably. She might have previously accepted Mr. Right’s proposal because of her love for him, but is there much chance of that now? Surely not. If she takes him seriously, she’ll undoubtedly marry him, but not as much for love as out of genuine terror at the alternative.

Is this God’s way of doing things? Does God want His people to turn to Him out of fear that they will be tortured otherwise? Where is the love in that? If everyone really believed in this doctrine, wouldn’t that properly tarnish their concept of the Savior? I would imagine some might even have a hard time calling Him “Savior” at all. How merciful can it be to create a never-ending torture pit for everyone and then save only a few from it?

[SeekAndFind]

RE: Hmmmm. This punishment is, apparently, NOT life. I wonder what it could be. ;-)

Here seems to be a hint:

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” ( Matthew 25:41)

Next question, what happens to the devil and his angels in that fire...

“10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.” (Revelations 20:10)

Now, it can be argued that Revelations 20 did not mentioned HUMAN BEINGS, but they were mentioned in Matthew 25 and that they will be thrown into the same “fire” as the Devil and his angels.

Not sure if humans are meant for annihilation and only the devil and his angels are to be tormented, but I see no reason for optimism here.

[fabian]

I think Swedenborg did travel though hell and it is as he describes...different levels where people’s souls are drawn to. They would actually burn in heaven.

[cuban leaf]

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” ( Matthew 25:41)

Next question, what happens to the devil and his angels in that fire...

“10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.” (Revelations 20:10)

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Several things. First, as you mentioned, human beings are not the Devil and his angels. This means that though they may be thrown into the eternal fire, that particular scripture doesn’t talk about torture but, rather, is mentioned in a context where the hearer (and reader that has not already been indoctrinated) would interpret that they would be burned up in the eternal fire (the fire may be eternal, and the fate of those thrown in it may be eternal - they are consumed by the fire - but the conscious suffering is not eternal. Second, there have already been a number of posts that really get into the controversy of the actual meaning of words that are translated into english as “eternal” or “forever and ever” and their true meaning within the context of the pasage. Third, the “lake of fire” in revelation is to the second death what lampstands are to the seven churches. Forth, though there are scriptures that can, to some degree, be interpretted to mean people will suffer “for ever and ever”, depending on your translation of some words, the lion’s share of scripture that deals with the subject juxtaposes the saved vs the lost as having eternal life vs death, destruction, perish, etc.

And most importantly, when one reads the word of God and their perception of his personality matures with prayer and study, the eternal suffering meme becomes less and less plausible. Yes, he is just, and as a just God, he casts out those that are not his. They are cast out of an eternity in his presence. They are gone, never to be seen or heard from again, virtually erased from existence.

[cuban leaf]

Not sure if humans are meant for annihilation and only the devil and his angels are to be tormented, but I see no reason for optimism here.

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I don’t know what you mean by “optimism”. There is nothing optimistic about the fate of the lost.

On a side note, I believe that the reason many lost people refuse to believe the gospel is they just can’t wrap their head around a “loving” God that would condemn most of humanity to unending unimaginable torture. So they refuse to believe it, along with the entire message. But when there is only salvation and annihilation, they choose their path freely, whichever it is. They are literally more likely to believe the message and choose their path sincerely, out of love - or out of narcissism - depending on the choice.

I’ve actually met non-Christians (that are strongly anti-Christianity) that HATE the annihilation message because it takes away their excuse for hating God and making fun of Christians. It makes it more plausible to their human mind and suddenly more believable, making their position less confident. They actually desperately NEED us to believe and preach it.

[paladinan]

Not sure if humans are meant for annihilation and only the devil and his angels are to be tormented, but I see no reason for optimism here.

Precisely. To suggest that the fallen angels would be treated with what you see as such "unspeakable cruelty" that you would doubt the existence of a God Who would allow that, after God Himself created them (fully good) out of nothing, and loved them all as surely as He loves us... well... that's a lapse in logic, as well as a curious callousness toward the fallen angels; and it's a very low opinion of the love and impartiality of God.

[paladinan]

All right... and (I don’t know if this will surprise you, or not, but) I fully agree (as would any faithful, well-informed Catholic) that every last salvation of every last human is completely and utterly attributable to the grace of God alone, bought for us by the Blood of the Lamb Who died upon the cross for us.

But: why did you bring this up, re: my position?

[cuban leaf]

To suggest that the fallen angels would be treated with what you see as such “unspeakable cruelty” that you would doubt the existence of a God Who would allow that, after God Himself created them...

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Hang on there. That is not what I suggested. It is what you inferred. And it is definitely now my position. The only fate I’m discussing here is the fate of those for whom Christ died that do not accept the free gift. Anything not human is outside the scope of my argument regarding the fate of that thing.

[cuban leaf]

To suggest that the fallen angels would be treated with what you see as such “unspeakable cruelty” that you would doubt the existence of a God Who would allow that, after God Himself created them...

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Hang on there. That is not what I suggested. It is what you inferred. And it is definitely now my position. The only fate I’m discussing here is the fate of those for whom Christ died that do not accept the free gift. Anything not human is outside the scope of my argument regarding the fate of that thing.

Now = Not

[paladinan]

Sorry, but this is precisely within the scope of your argument. You said:

“Is this God’s way of doing things? Does God want His people to turn to Him out of fear that they will be tortured otherwise? Where is the love in that? If everyone really believed in this doctrine, wouldn’t that properly tarnish their concept of the Savior? I would imagine some might even have a hard time calling Him “Savior” at all. How merciful can it be to create a never-ending torture pit for everyone and then save only a few from it?”

Now... God created the angels; correct? And He created them out of love, and out of nothingness (i.e. He willed them into being, and He maintains their existence at every moment). God meant for them to share communion with Him for all eternity; right?

So... why is it so scandalously wrong for God to, in your view (which is badly mistaken, by the way), “torture those humans who disagree, for all eternity”, but you somehow think it’s NOT scandalously wrong for God to (again, in your mistaken view) “torture those ANGELS who disagree, for all eternity”? Why is the first idea so horrifying to you that you say (paraphrasing) “a God of love would never do that, and such a teaching causes great harm!”, but you don’t extend the same courtesy to the angels who are (as you say) being tortured for ever and ever?

[SeekAndFind]

RE: that particular scripture doesn’t talk about torture but, rather, is mentioned in a context where the hearer (and reader that has not already been indoctrinated) would interpret that they would be burned up in the eternal fire (the fire may be eternal, and the fate of those thrown in it may be eternal - they are consumed by the fire - but the conscious suffering is not eternal.

_____________________________________________

I did not use the word — Torture. I used ( because the Bible uses it ) the word Torment.

Now is torment conscious? How you can torment an unconscious or a non-existent being?

“If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.” (Revelations 14:9-11).

So, the torment is CONSCIOUS. There will be no rest day and night, and it goes on forever. That’s how I understand the verse.

The most straightforward understanding of the above verses is Unsaved men spend eternity in the same place as the Devil and his angels: Rev 20:15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire, where he will be tormented without rest day and night forever.

I wish I could get around that, but I can’t without stretching the meaning of words.