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To: cuban leaf

RE: Hmmmm. This punishment is, apparently, NOT life. I wonder what it could be. ;-)

Here seems to be a hint:

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” ( Matthew 25:41)

Next question, what happens to the devil and his angels in that fire...

“10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.” (Revelations 20:10)

Now, it can be argued that Revelations 20 did not mentioned HUMAN BEINGS, but they were mentioned in Matthew 25 and that they will be thrown into the same “fire” as the Devil and his angels.

Not sure if humans are meant for annihilation and only the devil and his angels are to be tormented, but I see no reason for optimism here.


231 posted on 06/05/2014 12:34:27 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
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To: SeekAndFind

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” ( Matthew 25:41)

Next question, what happens to the devil and his angels in that fire...

“10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.” (Revelations 20:10)


Several things. First, as you mentioned, human beings are not the Devil and his angels. This means that though they may be thrown into the eternal fire, that particular scripture doesn’t talk about torture but, rather, is mentioned in a context where the hearer (and reader that has not already been indoctrinated) would interpret that they would be burned up in the eternal fire (the fire may be eternal, and the fate of those thrown in it may be eternal - they are consumed by the fire - but the conscious suffering is not eternal. Second, there have already been a number of posts that really get into the controversy of the actual meaning of words that are translated into english as “eternal” or “forever and ever” and their true meaning within the context of the pasage. Third, the “lake of fire” in revelation is to the second death what lampstands are to the seven churches. Forth, though there are scriptures that can, to some degree, be interpretted to mean people will suffer “for ever and ever”, depending on your translation of some words, the lion’s share of scripture that deals with the subject juxtaposes the saved vs the lost as having eternal life vs death, destruction, perish, etc.

And most importantly, when one reads the word of God and their perception of his personality matures with prayer and study, the eternal suffering meme becomes less and less plausible. Yes, he is just, and as a just God, he casts out those that are not his. They are cast out of an eternity in his presence. They are gone, never to be seen or heard from again, virtually erased from existence.


233 posted on 06/05/2014 1:02:42 PM PDT by cuban leaf
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To: SeekAndFind

Not sure if humans are meant for annihilation and only the devil and his angels are to be tormented, but I see no reason for optimism here.


I don’t know what you mean by “optimism”. There is nothing optimistic about the fate of the lost.

On a side note, I believe that the reason many lost people refuse to believe the gospel is they just can’t wrap their head around a “loving” God that would condemn most of humanity to unending unimaginable torture. So they refuse to believe it, along with the entire message. But when there is only salvation and annihilation, they choose their path freely, whichever it is. They are literally more likely to believe the message and choose their path sincerely, out of love - or out of narcissism - depending on the choice.

I’ve actually met non-Christians (that are strongly anti-Christianity) that HATE the annihilation message because it takes away their excuse for hating God and making fun of Christians. It makes it more plausible to their human mind and suddenly more believable, making their position less confident. They actually desperately NEED us to believe and preach it.


234 posted on 06/05/2014 1:08:08 PM PDT by cuban leaf
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To: SeekAndFind; cuban leaf
Not sure if humans are meant for annihilation and only the devil and his angels are to be tormented, but I see no reason for optimism here.

Precisely. To suggest that the fallen angels would be treated with what you see as such "unspeakable cruelty" that you would doubt the existence of a God Who would allow that, after God Himself created them (fully good) out of nothing, and loved them all as surely as He loves us... well... that's a lapse in logic, as well as a curious callousness toward the fallen angels; and it's a very low opinion of the love and impartiality of God.
235 posted on 06/05/2014 1:41:24 PM PDT by paladinan (Rule #1: There is a God. Rule #2: It isn't you.)
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