Revelation 1:7 - Past or Future?

Those who are willing to acknowledge the global context of Revelation have much evidence to support such a view. Those who are determined to shoe-horn Revelation back into the events of A.D. 70 are unlikely to be swayed by our evidence. Thankfully, we need not be overly concerned about the persistence of preterism because the plain meaning of the Biblical text stands opposed to its foundational teachings. As long as Bible students take the text at face value--as it was intended to be understood--then preterism will continue to face an uphill battle. To this fact we owe thanks to the perspicuity of the Scriptures.

"Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen." (Rev. 1:7)

>>>The preterists assure us that this verse is describing the “cloud coming” of Jesus Christ in judgment upon Jerusalem (at which every eye did not see Him). They assert that this was fulfilled when Jerusalem was destroyed in A.D. 70 and that the context of the verse is restricted either to Jerusalem and its environs, or to the Roman empire and Mediterranean region. They achieve this exegetical slight-of-hand by restricting “tribes” to mean “Israel” and “earth” to be “land.” Thus, they maintain that only the “[Israelite] tribes of the land” are specified in this passage.<<<

Literalism is a virtual minefield, that should only be considered with much caution, and always in context. For example, if everyone must literally see Jesus coming in the clouds, then how can the following be literally fulfilled?

"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged." (Jn 16:7-11 KJV)

Those are the words of Jesus, and are crystal clear. Even His beloved John did not see Jesus on Patmos. Jesus sent his angel:

"I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star." (Rev 22:16 KJV)

So, which is it? Do we all see him, or do we not see him? Or, are Rev 1:7 and Matt 24:30 referring to something allegorical that the high priest Caiaphas "understood" to be blasphemy:

"Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven." (Mt 26:64 KJV)

Recall that in the old testament, the Lord's presence was generally hidden or masked by a "cloud" or "fire," of sorts. When the Lord was present otherwise, it was typically as an angel of the Lord, as both Moses and John experienced.

In all cases, he is the same Lord: the one who spoke to Moses via his angel from the "burning bush;" the one who came unto Moses "in a thick cloud;" the one who went before the children of Israel in a "pillar of a cloud;" the one who spoke to John via his angel on Patmos; and the one who comes "in the clouds of heaven" in the Revelation.

Philip

>>>If Revelation is already fulfilled, then there’s not a heckuva lot of hope in the future. Technology is becoming so invasive and overpowering that we will even beyond an Orwellian police state to more like a Borg collective on steroids. Not in control of ourselves, and even the environment will be altered to the point that the surrounding environment will essentially be pure poison to anyone not in the collective. We will literally be unwilling slaves to pure evil. So everyone better really hope the preterists are dead wrong.<<<

I am reasonably certain preterists are wrong, as are futurists of all stripes. The only doctrine that makes any sense is postmillennialism. I'll explain:

All the things you mention are the work of Satan, and I believe he is currently loose and deceiving the nations. I believe he was loosed from his prison in the past century.

Up until the 20th century Christianity was growing and spreading. Christ and his saints had been reigning since the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. Then, as if a light switch was flipped, everything switched directions and started gradually going against Christianity: the courts, the legislation, even the press, media and education system: everything! Since that "switch" Satan and his angels have been able to corrupt our morals, worldwide, and place everyone under the bondage of tyranny. They have even been going after the morals of our children and parental rights. The whole world has been turned upside down.

This is where I think we are now:

"And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city . . . " (Rev 20:7-9 KJV)

The "breadth" of the earth means the entire earth. The camp of the saints is in the holy temple, which is part of the holy and beloved city, New Jerusalem, which is the church:

"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant . . . " (Heb 12:22-24 KJV)

"Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit." (Eph 2:19-22 KJV)

Satan has been, and is, going after the church; and he has heavily infiltrated it. It is the same Satan that corrupted old Jerusalem to the point that Flavius Josephus, a first century Jewish priest and historian, spoke of his generation this way:

"It is therefore impossible to go distinctly over every instance of these men's iniquity. I shall therefore speak my mind here at once briefly: - That neither did any other city ever suffer such miseries, nor did any age ever breed a generation more fruitful in wickedness than this was, from the beginning of the world." [The Wars Of The Jews, V:10:5]

Note he called his own generation of Jews the most wicked generation, ever. Christ implied the same:

"O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh." (Mt 12:34 KJV)

"But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." (Mt 12:39-40 KJV)

"Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?" (Mt 23:33 KJV)

Jesus went so far as to call the Jewish leadership the "children of the devil:"

"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." (Jn 8:44 KJV)

Therefore, it was Satan that had control of Jerusalem in the first century. Satan and his children are not that difficult to identify: he craves power, and his children crave power over other people: not the benevolent dictator type of power, but tyrannical power that leads to bondage and misery.

Most, if not all, postmillennialists, like myself, believe that Satan was bound upon the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. We also believe that the great city, Babylon the Great of the Revelation, was another name for first century Jerusalem: the great city that was made desolate by the Roman armies. With that in mind, this was the end of old Jerusalem, according to the Revelation:

"And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee; And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived." (Rev 18:21-23 KJV)

Note that all nations were deceived by "Jerusalem?" When Jerusalem was destroyed, putting an end to the wickedest of generations, the devil was also bound since he had few children left to deceive the nations and to carry out his wickedness:

"And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season." (Rev 20:1-3 KJV)

So, generally speaking, all nations were deceived by the sorceries of Satan and his children; that is, until the first century when most of his children were destroyed. Satan was marginalized for a long time until the opportunity arose for him to raise new children faster than they were being destroyed. I personally believe his ranks have been growing for about a century, while the Lord's ranks have been dwindling, and all because of Satan's ability to lie and deceive.

But, Satan's days are numbered. He will soon be destroyed, the river of water of life will flow again, and the nations will be healed:

"And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads." (Rev 22:1-4 KJV)

At least, that is the way I see it.

Philip

>>>The rapture of the church is the event in which God removes all believers from the earth in order to make way for His righteous judgment to be poured out on the earth during the tribulation period. The rapture is described primarily in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-54. God will resurrect all believers who have died, give them glorified bodies, and take them from the earth, along with those believers who are still alive and who will at that time also be given glorified bodies. “For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever” (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).<<<

Are you familiar with this resurrection in Daniel?

"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." (Dan 12:1-2 KJV)

The first thing to notice is that it occurs only for Daniel's people: thy people, the children of Israel. Note also that it is a partial resurrection--many shall awake, not all. Finally, note that both the wicked and the just are resurrected, similar to the resurrection in the parable of the sheep and the goats:

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world . . . Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:" (Mt 25:31-34, 41 KJV)

And it is similar to this resurrection:

"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." (Jn 5:28-29 KJV)

Note that in all three passages there is not a whisper of separate resurrections for the just and the unjust.

My question is, how does that resurrection (or resurrections) fit into the scheme of the rapture?

As aforementioned, Paul wrote in Thessalonians:

"But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words." (1Th 4:13-18 KJV)

It is obvious from the text that Paul was trying to comfort early Christians who has lost loved ones. The fact that he did not mention the unjust, does in no way exclude them from the resurrection, albeit the resurrection of damnation, as afore-named by Jesus.

Also note that Paul was expecting to be alive when the resurrection occurred: hence his use of we instead of they. That expectation, of an imminent resurrection, was held by all the apostles.

With those considerations, is it possible that the first resurrection was only for the early Christians, and, as Daniel implied, only for the children of Israel (many of them?) That would explain the 144,000 in the Revelation 7 being all Israel, with no mention of any Gentile servant anywhere in the Revelation. It would also explain the wording of other verses, such as Revelation 14:4 and 20:4-6; even 1 Thess 4:17, where the exegesis of the words "so shall we ever be" reveals it to mean "in this manner shall we ever be," that is, "forever with the Lord in the air or clouds." Or, in plain language, those resurrected are forever in heaven with the Lord.

If that be the case, the final resurrection that occurs in Revelation 20:11-15 (our resurrection,) will also be for both the just and the unjust. Otherwise, why would Jesus make this statement?

"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." (Rev 22:12 KJV)

Philip

>>>Philip ... step away from your keyboard slowly<<<

I am typically away from the keyboard, Dartuser. Only on occasion do I put down my honey-do list, or a good book, and check out the new threads, or respond to a post or two.

>>>... then take a deep breath ... get a little oxygen to your brain ...<<<

That reeks, simultaneously, of condescension and desperation.

>>>your in desperate need<<<

It is nice, from time to time, to have to someone to engage with in a serious debate. But I am far from desperate. When I am not marking items off my honey-do list, I have access to truck loads of biblical and historical books and commentaries, by legendary authors, from here:

https://archive.org/advancedsearch.php

Check it out.

Dartuser, this is a debate forum. Wouldn't you feel better if you contributed something of real substance to the forum, at least in your own thread? So far all I have read comes across as a steady whine. And why is everything so cryptic? Are we not supposed to let our lights shine before men?

I will attempt to unencrypt. You wrote:

John 16 is from the Upper Room discourse ... only Jesus and the 12 were there ... the whole context of the discourse is that Jesus is going away. His death, resurrection, and ascension are near ... He specifically said He was going back to the Father ... He is speak to his apostles ... not everyone. Is it really so hard to just read the text ... in context?

I sorta thought I did quote John 16 in context. I am not certain, but I believe the statement you are questioning is my interpretation of this:

Jesus said, "I go to my Father, and ye see me no more." That is clear: no interpretation is necessary. Therefore the verses fore and aft should be interpreted in that light.

Jesus began that chapter, as a continuation of Chapter 15, with a warning to his disciples that their lives would be in danger from the Jews:

"These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended. They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me." (Jn 16:1-3 KJV)

I am reminded of Paul (Saul) who consented to Stephen's murder. Paul believed at the time that he was doing the right thing: that he was doing God's service.

Jesus follows with some comments about his own destiny:

"But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou? But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart. Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you." (Jn 16:5-7 KJV)

That led into the aforementioned passage, verses 7-11, that states we will see Jesus no more. Jesus continued his explanation of his ascension to the Father and sending the Comforter, and then said this:

"Now Jesus knew that they were desirous to ask him, and said unto them, Do ye enquire among yourselves of that I said, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me? Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy. A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world. And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you." (Jn 16:19-22 KJV)

That seems like a contradiction, until it is placed in the proper context. As we all know, after his resurrection, Jesus did spend some time with his disciples; but that was before his ascension to the Father: before sending the Comforter. Verses 7-11 indicate that once ascended, his disciples would see him no more; so there is no contradiction.

So what about claims that Jesus will physically reign on earth for 1000 years? David said this:

"The Lord is in his holy temple, the Lord's throne is in heaven. . . " (Ps 11:4 KJV)

"The Lord hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all." (Ps 103:19 KJV)

And, of course, there is this:

"Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?" (Acts 7:49 KJV)

The Lord's throne is in heaven, where it will remain forever.

Recall that after his baptism, and while he was still "naïve," that is, before angels ministered unto him (Matt 4:11,) Christ was tempted by Satan. Satan offered Christ all the kingdoms of the world, and Christ rejected them. Therefore, when Christ stated in John 18:36 that his kingdom was not of this world (kosmos, not aeon,) he meant it literally.

Philip

>>>If Christ already returned, then why are didn’t he gather all the Christians to Him and resurrect them to everlasting life, as He promised He would do when He returned?<<<

Where did he promise that, and what was the context? Recall that Christ speaks of a "first" resurrection, but only for select individuals:

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." (Rev 20:4-6 KJV)

Who were those people? It was certainly a special kind of resurrection. We know that at least some of them were the disciples, since Jesus promised them thrones and seats of judgement over Israel (Matt 19:28; Luke 22:30.) Others were "beheaded" for their witness, but that could mean they were simply killed for their witness and/or their refusal to worship the beast. Note that those will not be hurt of the second death that occurs in the future.

So, there was a "first" resurrection, so we can assume there will be a "second." There is also a "second" death, so we can assume there was also a "first" death. Putting it all together, each resurrection occurred/will occur exactly as prophesied in the old testament (Daniel) and the new (the Gospels) where both the just and unjust are resurrected in each case, some to eternal life and some to damnation.

>>>Why didn’t He bring peace on earth, and goodwill toward man?<<<

Jesus never made such as promise. To the contrary, he said he came to send a sword:

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household." (Mt 10:34-36 KJV)

Even after Satan was bound (at the first resurrection) he retained most of his powers. He is still able to cause murders, thefts, immorality, and all sorts of evils, which we have seen over the centuries. The only power he lost was the ability to deceive the nations. Therefore, until he was released, we were able to recognize his evil ways. But once he was released, he was able to deceive many into believing evil was actually good. I believe that is where we are now.

>>>Why didn’t he mete out vengeance to God’s enemies and tread the winepress of His wrath?<<<

He did, to Jerusalem and outlying cities. And he will, again, to Satan and his minions.

>>>It also brings up the problem that, if these prophecies were fulfilled by 70 AD, why did none of the Christians alive at that time seem to notice?<<<

Maybe the only ones that were on hand to witness the resurrection were either killed or resurrected. There were millions killed, and the entire countryside was made desolate.

Of course, even if witnesses were present, what would they see, if anything? We have only the interpretations of men to go by. The scripture provides few details of how a resurrection actually takes place.

>>>Why were they still speaking of these series of events culminating in Christ’s return being something in the future to look out for in the Didache, written not long after that period? <<<

Why not? From what I understand there were no eyewitness documents, except for Josephus, and maybe Tacitus; nor was anything written about the event for many decades afterward, from about AD70 to 150: better known as "The Silent Era." There are a few early documents available (mostly Apocrypha, and of uncertain dating;) but they are not much help in determining if a resurrection happened or not. They are:

Epistle of Mathetes
1st Clement (of Rome)
Barnabas
Apocalypse Of Baruch
Shepherd of Hermas
Esdras 2 (4 Ezra)
Gospel of Peter
Odes of Solomon
Ignatius

The first writing about the event by a Church Father was, I believe, by Justin Martyr about AD 150, or about 80 years after the destruction of Jerusalem. Polycarp, who was born about AD 70, claims he knew John the apostle. But I seriously doubt that person was actually John. John, of all people, would have written of the fulfillment, or at least mentioned it, if he was still around.

There were, however, many strange events recorded by Josephus and Tacitus, both of which wrote about a mysterious "army" in the clouds. This is what Josephus wrote, as translated by William Whiston, 1737:

"Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one and twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities." [Wars of the Jews, VI.5.3]

This is from a two volume set on Josephus by a different translator, Robert Traill, 1851:

“What I am about to relate would, I conceive, be deemed a mere fable, had it not been related by eye-witnesses, and attended by calamities commensurate with such portents. Before sunset were seen around the whole country chariots poised in the air, and armed battalions speeding through the clouds and investing the cities.” (Wars of the Jews, Volume II, Chapter VI, p.197.)

This is Tacitus, a Roman Historian, on the same event (among others):

"There had happened omens and prodigies, things which that nation so addicted to superstition, but so averse to the Gods, hold it unlawful to expiate either by vows or victims. Hosts were seen to encounter in the air, refulgent arms appeared; and, by a blaze of lightning shooting suddenly from the clouds, all the Temple was illuminated. The great gates of the Temple were of themselves in an instant thrown open, and a voice more than human heard to declare, that “the Gods were going to depart.” [The Works of Tacitus, Vol 4, Book V, The Summary]

That gives a whole new meaning to the prophecies, "behold, he cometh with clouds," and "he shall send his angels, and shall gather together his elect."

>>>I guess some of them could have been spiritually blind, but the entirety of the church? If that were true, what would that say of the utility of the prophecies, if nobody even recognized them after they were fulfilled in front of their eyes?<<<

Maybe most of the new Testament prophecies were only for the early church. Jesus said he was sent only to the lost sheep of the House of Israel; so the early Christian Gentiles may have not been privy to the prophecies. They could have been strictly on a need-to-know basis; that is, only those who were to be resurrected were privy, and those who were not were only warned to get out of Jerusalem.

Note that there are no Gentile servants mentioned in the Revelation. In fact, the only mention of a Gentile anywhere in the book are those who tread the holy city under foot for forty and two months (3.5 years) in Revelation 11:2.

Philip

You understand Free Vulcan, don’t let anyone take your crown from you,

The light of the body is in the eyes, people who cannot or will not perceive what you and I easily can don’t have that same light, also alluded to in Daniel Chapter 12,

Its nothing more than arrogance that blinds their understanding, they expect the Word (Jesus) can be divided by some ingenuity around their own intelligence and yet they still arrive at the end with no apparent spiritual discernment, ever learning but never able to obtain the knowledge they desperately need. It requires the Holy Spirit to fully understand, to show us those things which are to come,

Those ‘having a form of godliness, but deny the power’ that is, they have every appearance of understanding and worshiping the creator, but cannot acknowledge his spirit in all power, operating directly in front of them, for example prophecy as a direct witness, they see flesh instead of his influence or even that of seducing spirits at work all around them operating as principalities and powers,

We’re told how things will be at the end of the age:

“This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves,covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.” 2 Timothy 3:1-5

The book of Revelation was written in the spirit, from Gods point of view not ours and it requires his spirit to understand and then it will take you to every other book of the bible to see where these patterns repeat, showing us the things which were, which are, and finally what will be. Anywhere it does not repeat it’s immediately explained. However many will take just one pattern and presume it to be complete when its merely a shadow of what is still to come as a witness to a much larger audience,

Satan rules this world, it belongs to him because we gave it to him, today he stands in Heaven and accuses the brethren (the Church) as we are operating in the spirit within his physical authority over the Earth, he has authority over the flesh for now.

Jesus came “as it is written” but instead was rejected and everything in the flesh was taken from him, his inheritance, his vineyard, this world, it was all stolen from him even his very clothes were taken before he hung on the cross, but where Satan meant it for evil, God meant it for good,

Jesus now sits at the right hand of the Father (until) the fulness of the Gentiles be come in, when the Father reclaims this physical Earth with the Jubilee restoration of all things, then the court in Daniel Chapter 7 and Revelation Chapters 4 and 5 will render it to the one who has the greater claim to perform the Kinsman redeemer provisions. We can be assured that he will choose to do so and will summarily reclaim this physical Earth from the usurpers, it will be a day of vengeance on the Earth, the vengeance of his Temple (him) not of some stone building once on the Earth.

It’s interesting that many seem to think the following was written as an end-time comment from outsiders, read it carefully, these are believers doing the mocking:

“Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation” 2 Peter 3:3-4

These are also the same ones without oil in their lamps when the bridegroom comes ‘at the midnight hour’ instead they’re rebuked by him and left standing outside “and the door was shut.”

Then Peter goes on to quote Psalm 90 explaining again that a thousand years is as one day, and I tell you that it has only been two days since the Church age began in the spirit,

>>>But he will resolve the transgressors of the Law (Israel) at the time of the end per Daniel Chapter 9...<<<

I am fairly certain that Daniel 9 was fulfilled by the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. The 70 weeks (490 years) were completed decades before, one-half week (3.5 years) after Christ was crucified. It went something like this:

Seventy weeks were determined (decreed) upon the people of Israel and upon the holy city (Dan 9:24) to complete the following six events.

1. to finish the transgression
2. to make an end of sins
3. to make reconciliation for iniquity
4. to bring in everlasting righteousness
5. to seal up the vision and prophecy
6. to anoint the most Holy

The punishment (the destruction of Jerusalem) was NOT part of the 70 weeks, and therefore occurred afterward.

Jesus began his ministry at the beginning of the 70th week, e.g., after 69 weeks, as follows:

"from the commandment to restore...unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks..." (verse 25)

So, Christ, the Messiah, shows up at the end of the 69th week. Then Christ preaches the gospel for 3.5 years (verse 27, "midst of the week"), and then is "cut-off" or executed (verse 26.) All this occurred during the 70th week, or as verse 27 states, "in the midst (or middle)" of the 70th week when Christ caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease.

The "he" in the last verse (v. 27) is the Messiah, in both cases, if proper grammatical rules are applied.

He [Christ] confirms the covenant for a total of one week: during his 3.5 year ministry, and for 3.5 years after his crucifixion via his disciples. Recall "he that receiveth you receiveth me," from Mt 10:40. Also Recall that Jesus was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, as were his disciples until Acts 10.

The punishment occurred later, in fact about 35-40 years later:

"...the people of the prince [Titus] that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined." (verse 26)

The next verse provides other details of the punishment:

" ... for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." (verse 27)

Philip

“Where did he promise that, and what was the context? Recall that Christ speaks of a “first” resurrection, but only for select individuals:”

Sorry, you’re out of luck there. The very same event was described in more detail in 1 Corinthians 15:

“50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”

So we (the church) shall all be changed at the last trump, which corresponds only with the first resurrection. This is further confirmed in 1 Thessalonians 4:

“13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

Again, the dead in Christ (dead Christians), and the living Christians will all be transformed at the coming of Christ, which corresponds to the first resurrection described in Revelation. That covers all the bases, there are no Christians left.

“Putting it all together, each resurrection occurred/will occur exactly as prophesied in the old testament (Daniel) and the new (the Gospels) where both the just and unjust are resurrected in each case, some to eternal life and some to damnation.”

You are incorrect on this point as well. Every description of the first resurrection is limited only to the righteous (which means only those saved by Christ, since we have no righteousness to claim from ourselves). The nature of the two resurrections is clearly confirmed in Luke 14:14:

“14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.”

Here we see first resurrection clearly specified as only a resurrection of the just, and also in John 5:28-29:

“28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.”

Christ describes two separate events, a resurrection of life (the first resurrection) and a resurrection of judgement (the second resurrection). Also, we have a similar statement in Acts 24:14 :

“15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.”

This can only refer to two separate events, as we know there are two separate resurrections, as Christ already described, and would later be described in Revelation. We also have it even more clearly explained by Paul in

“Jesus never made such as promise. To the contrary, he said he came to send a sword:”

That was what he came to bring in his first advent, not the second. Here is what He is promised to bring when He returns, from Isaiah 2:4 :

“And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.”

So, the existence of war demonstrates that Christ has not yet returned, despite your assertions to the contrary.

“Even after Satan was bound (at the first resurrection) he retained most of his powers.”

Satan was not bound, because the first resurrection hasn’t happened yet, so the rest of your argument here is meaningless.

“He did, to Jerusalem and outlying cities. And he will, again, to Satan and his minions.”

Slow down there. The judgement of the nations is intricately linked to Christ’s return. You cannot claim his return and the first resurrection happened without it, or satisfy this prophecy by substituting the judgement of Jerusalem. The nations haven’t been judged, Christ’s enemies are not in the lake of fire, so Christ hasn’t returned, it is plain as day.

“Maybe the only ones that were on hand to witness the resurrection were either killed or resurrected.”

The prophecies state all eyes will see, and if all were killed or resurrected, the earth would be empty. Clearly your interpretation is wrong.

“Of course, even if witnesses were present, what would they see, if anything?”

Christ coming in his glory, with his heavenly army, as the Bible tell us.

“Why not? From what I understand there were no eyewitness documents, except for Josephus, and maybe Tacitus; nor was anything written about the event for many decades afterward, from about AD70 to 150: better known as “The Silent Era.””

So, what is this, an argument from absence? There is no record among any Christians of that era that these events happened. The logical conclusion is that the event you are proposing didn’t happen, not that they just didn’t know about it, or bother to write about it. If you want to prove it happened, the onus is on you to show the documentation, otherwise there is no evidence for your assertion.

“There were, however, many strange events recorded by Josephus and Tacitus, both of which wrote about a mysterious “army” in the clouds.”

It’s inconceivable that a Jew who rejected Christ would be only witness provided to us of Christ’s return. Besides, the event he describe does not correspond to Christ’s return, because, first of all, Christ is absent, and also, the heavenly trumpet is absent, the resurrection of the dead is absent, and the judgement against the nations is absent. One of out five is bad when picking lotto numbers, but even worse when claiming a fulfillment of prophecy.

“Maybe most of the new Testament prophecies were only for the early church. Jesus said he was sent only to the lost sheep of the House of Israel; so the early Christian Gentiles may have not been privy to the prophecies.”

This might make sense if Jewish Christians just all died out, but they never did, so there still would have been witnesses, even if Christ only made a special appearance for Israel, as preposterous as that idea is. I could go into why it’s so preposterous, but I really see no point in bothering.

“Note that there are no Gentile servants mentioned in the Revelation.”

Hmm, maybe because when we take on Christ, we are grafted in as heirs to the promise, and regarded by God as Israelites? Might that not be more likely than that none of the promises given to the entire church throughout the New Testament apply to gentile believers?

That was a very good post. I don't agree with many of your interpretations, but I see it is well thought out. I have a couple of comments on your last paragraph, which reads:

>>>Then Peter goes on to quote Psalm 90 explaining again that a thousand years is as one day, and I tell you that it has only been two days since the Church age began in the spirit,<<<

You stated, without reservation, that Peter intended the thousand years to equal a day. In context, we see that Peter was speaking of the last days when he made that statement:

"Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation . . . But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." (2Pet 3:3-4, 8 KJV)

But when Peter said "last days," he was referring to his days: his generation. For example, Christ's ministry occurred during the last days:

"God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;" (Heb 1:1-2 KJV)

The Day of Pentecost occurred during the last days:

"But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams" (Acts 2:16-17 KJV)

Moses prophesied that a great evil would fall upon Israel during the last (or latter) days:

"For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the Lord, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands." (Deu 31:29 KJV)

Jesus confirmed, in many ways, the wickedness of Israel during his generation, and foretold the great evil that would come upon them within that generation.

Therefore, it appears the term "last days" was simply a reference to the last days of the Jewish age.

You also mentioned a "Church Age." I am of the opinion that the Church is forever, because of these verses, among others:

"Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen." (Eph 3:21 KJV)

"Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;" (Eph 5:25 KJV)

Contrary to the belief of some that the church was an afterthought, the church was actually foretold in the old testament prophecies, in particular in the Psalms and Isaiah. The allegorical language of the prophecies foretold a stone: a stone of stumbling; a chief cornerstone; and the stone which the builders rejected. The cornerstone was laid on mount Zion.

As a fulfillment, Christ is the chief cornerstone of the Holy Temple, found on heavenly mount Sion, which is the location of the Church, called heavenly Jerusalem, as follows:

"For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit." (Eph 2:18-22 KJV)

"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant . . ." (Heb 12:22-24 KJV)

Philip

So we (the church) shall all be changed at the last trump, which corresponds only with the first resurrection. This is further confirmed in 1 Thessalonians 4:

Hope you don` mind if I butt in here a little, but When Paul refers to ( Christ, the first fruits )I believe Jesus
led the first fruits in the resurrection, the first fruits being the 144000 referred to in revelation.

Rev 14
3 No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.

4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb.

5 No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.

Note, it said first fruits just as Paul did.

Romans ch 8
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

We can see from the above that Paul knew there were other people who had already been resurrected (Glorified)

John 12
23And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.

Hosea 6
2After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

There were no Christians in the first resurrection they were Gods chosen from the old testament and were conformed to the image of Jesus.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

All of the verses pointed out here convinces me that Jesus did not go alone but took the 144000 with him.

Mathew 27
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Notice, it says after his resurrection, not at his death.

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