Posted on 05/28/2014 7:41:25 PM PDT by ReformationFan
I’ve been a Christian from an early age. I’ve never sought out a Calvinist for discussion or argument. For some reason, many have crossed my path, & insisted on presenting the case that they were right & my faith & practice were wrong. This has been going on for decades.
.45, I am less inclined toward Calvinism now than at any time in my life. One of the reasons, certainly not the only one, is how NASTY so many of these Calvinists became when I didn’t capitulate to their liking. I can honestly say that of all the Christians I have ever met, the Calvinists I’ve encountered were the most aggressive & the least joyous, peaceful, patient & kind. I’ve had some negative experiences with other denominations, but the Calvinists stand out. If the fruit of the Spirit means anything, then please be aware that I saw little or no manifestation of it in those individuals.
I don’t share these experiences often. The last time I mentioned it I was called a Calvin basher. That’s right. For honestly relating real life experiences I have had, I was labeled a basher. Whatever. I just offer these insights to you for consideration. You seem to think there is something compelling about Calvinism. If there were, then Calvinists more than other Christians would overflow with love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness & faithfulness. Loudly proclaiming one’s theology correct is the easy part. Living in the Spirit to the degree that the fruits are more abundant day by day, week by week—that’s where the rubber meets the road.
[Note: just to head you off at the pass. Yes, good, sound theology matters. It matters very much. BUT, good, sound theology is in part what produces the fruits of the Spirit. It all works together. If you claim your theology is superior to all others, but it’s not working in your life to produce, in conjunction with the Spirit, the fruits thereof, then something is amiss—profoundly so.]
If that’s true, and I have no reason to doubt you, it’s too bad. That’s not been my experience whatsoever. As I have mentioned, I had been saved for 30 years before I embraced Calvinism and it happened while I was still a member of a prominent Southern Baptist Church, a place we were very plugged in and comfortable. Understand initially I wanted nothing to do with Calvinism because I realized what it meant. I didn’t understand it all, but I knew enough to realize it would be a radical change. Since then I have lost friends over it. I never tried to get them to believe as I do and we never had any cross words about it, but my family was shunned once they understood what we believe. I had friends ask questions about it. Once they heard my answers I never heard from them again. If I can’t play golf or go hunting and fishing or my kids can’t go swimming all because we believe God is sovereign, then so be it.
After a while I realized we needed to look for another church home. When I first took my family to visit Calvinist congregation we were wowed by the welcome and warmth shown to us, both by pastors and regular people in the pews. We visited a number of places before we finally settled. Before that happened we enjoyed much hospitality and made many new Christian friends among several other congregations. We did visit one place where we did not feel welcome. For what it’s worth, it was a Presbyterian congregation in the PCA. However, we visited other Presbyterian congregations that welcomed us with open arms, so it has nothing to do with Presbyterianism.
My little church home doesn’t impress the world, but if you are a believer the people and the warmth would impress you. Their love of The Lord would impress you. The digging deep into the Scriptures would impress you. There are families driving two hours each way every Sunday to get there. Each of them must pass a hundred other Baptist churches on the way. Just last week a senior citizen who is a deacon in a large Southern Baptist Church in another city told me he has never visited another place like it.
I suspect your experience has to do with the particular folks you have encountered. There are hot and cold Calvinist congregations, just as there are with all others. In the end truth is based on His word, it’s not based on those who believe it.
It’s good to hear that you’ve had such a positive experience. Of course it does make a difference that you are yourself a Calvinist. I.e.: none of the aggressive, in some cases outright vicious, Calvinists I’ve encountered would have been anything but warm towards me IF I had been a Calvinist too. What set them off was the fact that I am not. If you see the difference?
I did attend a Presbyterian church for a little over two yrs, PCA. The people were okay: friendly, but in a kind of arms’ length way. I hadn’t given the idea that they were Calvinists much thought; that just wasn’t my main focus at the time. Interestingly, at about the two yr mark, the pastor preached a TULIP sermon of an almost hellfire variety. He’d never done anything like that before, in the not inconsiderable time I was there. It unsettled me a bit.
It wasn’t as unsettling, however, as the scandal that enveloped the place a few mos later. I won’t go into the details, but it did involve the pastor & it was pretty bad. Now I can’t tell you that there was one scintilla of a connection between this pastor’s first ever [in my experience] Calvinistic brimstone sermon & the scandalous doings behind the scenes. The juxtaposition was suggestive, but nothing more. I had already decided, by that point, that it wasn’t the right place for me spiritually-speaking, so I moved on.
Anyway, I don’t really have anything more to add. I appreciate the time you took on your reply, & I did find it interesting. Blessings to you & yours.
[You might find it interesting that several of the congregants mentioned to me that the TULIP sermon startled them considerably. One made it a point to tell me they didn’t believe the TULIP theology. Not sure what that was all about, but fwiw, there you have it.]
My story would be the same as the both of you as well. The Sovereignty of God is the hinge pin. Ez 36:22-32 in my search was the real eye opener. I started circling the “I will”s and underlining the “you will”s. I realized that what is this if not a description of Jn 3? I realized never once in the passage does the Lord say, “If you want...or choose...or desire...” Instead, He does...and we will. It was then I realized that if He did not take the initiative to take out my heart of stone and give me a heart that would respond to Him, I was lost for eternity due to my total depravity, for nothing in me desired Him, apart from Him.
The “5” are not independent of each other. They rest upon one another. Remove one, and you ultimately have none. It was when I understood these concepts that I saw my need to remove the last part of my posterior off His throne, and fall completely at His feet in utter dependance. Realizing the true slave that I was, became the most joyful freedom I have ever experienced, next to my heart changing salvation day.
For once when I thought I was free to will, it turned out I was only a slave to my depravity.
I thank the Lord for men like John MacArthur and his Doctrines of Grace series, Dr. Voddie Baucham and his journey through Romans, R.C. Sproul for his works on Double Imputation vs. Infusion, and John Piper as well.
You suggested Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,"
Interestingly, I have seen this verse used to defend "universal reconciliation", which completely un-scriptural.
Compare with Titus 3:4-7 4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared,
5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,
6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.
Is faith in Christ a righteous thing that we do?
James is writing to "Brothers and Sisters" (vs 2, 16), and clarifies in verse 1:18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.
The question, then, is what are their souls being saved from? Damnation? Entanglement in Sin? (Heb 12:1) Premature death? (1 John 5:16)
That's WAY out of context, and has nothing to do with salvation whatsoever! This was spoken by Moses to Israel, encouraging them to keep the conditional covenant with God, regarding their land, liberty and mortal lives.
Deut 20:20 and that you may love the Lord your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the Lord is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob."
Isaiah 1:18 “Come now, let us settle the matter,” says the Lord. “Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool.
19 If you are willing and obedient, you will eat the good things of the land;
20 but if you resist and rebel, you will be devoured by the sword.”
I won't list the whole passage here, but once more Joshua is compelling the Israelites to keep their conditional covenant with YHWH.
Does it seem odd to you that your beliefs have been so dependent on the writings of two reformed theologians from 500 years ago ? A 1500 year gap and you don't see the red flag ? The behavior of john Calvin and you don't notice the problem ? Have you noticed how many continue to seek a new movement, denomination, sect, or system to make their Christian experience genuine ? Do you really believe there was a divine intervention of confusion 500 years ago ? If so, why not go back and be a genuine Calvinist ? Oh, Calvin tried and failed at that in Geneva already.
“Is faith in Christ a righteous thing that we do?”
“Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?”
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”
In scripture, faith is never referred to as a “work”. Neither is saving faith ever referred to as a “gift”. Faith is contrasted with work, but is is, by definition, something we do in response to God.
“primarily, “firm persuasion,” a conviction based upon hearing (akin to peitho, “to persuade”), is used in the NT always of “faith in God or Christ, or things spiritual.”
The word is used of (a) trust, e.g., Rom. 3:25 [see Note (4) below]; 1 Cor. 2:5; 15:14,17; 2 Cor. 1:24; Gal. 3:23 [see Note (5) below]; Phil. 1:25; 2:17; 1 Thess. 3:2; 2 Thess. 1:3; 3:2; (b) trust-worthiness, e.g., Matt. 23:23; Rom. 3:3, RV, “the faithfulness of God;” Gal. 5:22 (RV, “faithfulness”); Titus 2:10, “fidelity;” (c) by metonymy, what is believed, the contents of belief, the “faith,” Acts 6:7; 14:22; Gal. 1:23; 3:25 [contrast Gal. 3:23, under (a)]; Gal. 6:10; Phil. 1:27; 1 Thess. 3:10; Jude 1:3,20 (and perhaps 2 Thess. 3:2); (d) a ground for “faith,” an assurance, Acts 17:31 (not as in AV, marg., “offered faith”); (e) a pledge of fidelity, plighted “faith,” 1 Tim. 5:12.
The main elements in “faith” in its relation to the invisible God, as distinct from “faith” in man, are especially brought out in the use of this noun and the corresponding verb, pisteuo; they are (1) a firm conviction, producing a full acknowledgement of God’s revelation or truth, e.g., 2 Thess. 2:11,12; (2) a personal surrender to Him, John 1:12; (3) a conduct inspired by such surrender, 2 Cor. 5:7. Prominence is given to one or other of these elements according to the context. All this stands in contrast to belief in its purely natural exercise, which consists of an opinion held in good “faith” without necessary reference to its proof. The object of Abraham’s “faith” was not God’s promise (that was the occasion of its exercise); his “faith” rested on God Himself, Rom. 4:17,20,21.”
http://www2.mf.no/bibelprog/vines?word=%AFt0000987
Please note in this small sample, faith is something men do, often poorly, and not something God places in a person:
Mat 6:30
“But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the furnace, will He not much more clothe you? You of little faith!
Mat 8:10
Now when Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those who were following, “Truly I say to you, I have not found such great faith with anyone in Israel.
Mat 8:26
He *said to them, “Why are you afraid, you men of little faith?” Then He got up and rebuked the winds and the sea, and it became perfectly calm.
Mat 9:2
And they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. Seeing their faith, Jesus said to the paralytic, “Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven.”
Mat 9:22
But Jesus turning and seeing her said, “Daughter, take courage; your faith has made you well.” At once the woman was made well.
Mat 9:29
Then He touched their eyes, saying, “It shall be done to you according to your faith.”
Mat 14:31
Immediately Jesus stretched out His hand and took hold of him, and *said to him, “You of little faith, why did you doubt?”
Mat 15:28
Then Jesus said to her, “O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish.” And her daughter was healed at once.
John 6: 28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Our ability to believe at all is the work of God! Our complete salvation is His work, including the saving faith we possess, our very faith is His work alone! To wit:
John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
Romans 8:30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
1 Cor 12:3b ...and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
Philippians 1:6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.
Salvation is initiated, caused to be believed upon and completed by God alone!!
I think our disagreement comes to this: Does God reveal Jesus to some people that subsequently refuse to believe?
My understanding of scripture says no, especially because of Romans 8:30 and Phil 1:6.
Also, reading John 6:29 indicates that our belief is God's work.
Romans 8:30 leaves out belief in the sequence:
predestined-called-justified-glorified.
We may insert belief in here in 2 ways:
1. predestined-called-the sinner has faith and believes-justified-glorified
2. predestined-called-God gives the sinner faith and causes him/her to believe-justified-glorified.
In light of Eph 2:8-10, I opt for #2. It is ALL God's doing, to him be the praise forever!
Ephesians 2:8-10 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Calvin’s god was a Sadistic monster. It wasn’t incumbent upon him to create souls for no other purpose than to torment them eternally in hell. To create a living soul with the ability to feel pain, agony & despair, & to do so solely for the purpose of placing that soul in a place of eternal torture, is vile. Kind of like Calvin wishing to see a person die for a fundamental theological fallacy. Nowhere in the New Testament is it even remotely suggested that we should kill those who don’t believe. You trust Calvin to be right on the idea of souls created for no other purpose than eternal torture, yet you see no problem with him desiring the death of a person mired in theological error. There was no Golden Rule involved in wishing for Servetus’ death. It was a violation of New Testament teaching & a vicious thing to do.
The God revealed in the Bible is not Sadistic. Here is a description of the true God:
9 “The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.” 2 Pet. 3
The true God doesn’t wish for anyone to spend eternity in torment. In this sense, as in so many others, He is fundamentally different from Calvin’s god.
You err on the idea of eternal torture. The Lake of fire is the second death, perishining, being destroyed - all biblical words. There is no eternal torture!
First, there is a parallel in the ‘eternal’ rewards for both the saved & the lost. From Matthew 25:
34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38 And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39 When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’
41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44 Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
If you believe the righteous will enjoy eternal heaven, how can you not believe the damned will similarly be in eternal torment? [Btw, ‘annihilation’ didn’t arise as a doctrine/belief until around the same time as Calvin. It has not always been even a minority view.]
Secondly, Jesus described degrees of punishment. From Luke 12:
42 ‘And the Lord said, “Who then is the faithful and sensible steward, whom his master will put in charge of his servants, to give them their rations at the proper time? 43 Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes. 44 Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 45 But if that slave says in his heart, ‘My master will be a long time in coming,’ and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk; 46 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers. 47 And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes, 48 but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.’
How does degree of punishment fit in with annihilation? Are some annihilated more painfully than others? Is the annihilation of some quick, while of others slow & excruciating?
Ephesians 2:8 does not allow for faith to be the gift referred to. It could in English, but the Greek does not permit it.
“And that (kai touto). Neuter, not feminine taute, and so refers not to pistis (feminine) or to charis (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (ex humon, out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God’s gift (doron) and not the result of our work.” - Robertson’s Word Pictures
John 6:29 must be read in combination with John 6:28:
“Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”
Notice that when read in context, Jesus says belief is something WE do, not what God does to us. Notice he does also not follow Calvin, who would have to reply, if honest, “There is nothing for you to do, since you cannot do the work of God. You must wait to see if God gives you belief or not.”
Philippians 1.6 reads, “6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.” And as I have pointed out earlier, God initiates all revelation of Himself to us. The question is if that revelation is resistible...and scripture seems to teach that it is, since Jesus rebukes people for their lack of faith, and there are verses about how wee should not resist the Holy Spirit.
Romans 8 says:
“29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.”
Predestination is not to justification, but to being conformed to the image of Jesus. And those he “foreknew” are the subject of that predestination, but it does not say if those he foreknew means a list of names God picked to save, or those whom God knew would repent and believe.
You also have verses such as Ephesians 1:
“13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.”
Please notice the first 2 words: “In Him”. All things come from being “in him”. You cannot leave those words out without changing the meaning. And how do we come to be “in him”? “...when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit...”
Again, this is not the picture of something done TO us, but our response to God.
In John 3 we read, “14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.”
Whoever believes”, not “Whoever is given belief”.
Jhn 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
Again, ‘who hears and believes’ - verbs done by man, not done to man by God.
The last verse of John 20: “but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”
By believing you may have life. Belief is the condition for life, and it is something man does in response to God’s revelation.
So, you're suggesting that both have eternal life, one in the Lake of Fire., and one in Paradise? I know, in your interpretation, "Eternal Life" is not what those who are alive in the Lake of Fire with immortal bodies possess. Just what do they possess, then?
FWIW, eternal punishment can also be read everlasting-final-absolute punishment, which is irreversable.
John, in Rev20:14, states "Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death."
Is death and Hades destroyed, or tortured forever as well? What does Second Death mean, anyway?
John 3:16 16For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Hebrews 10:27 "but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God." I suppose you think "perish" and "consume" actually means kept alive and tortured forever?
The idea of the immortality of the Human soul is not biblical, rather, it's hellenic. God ALONE is immortal, (1 Tim 6:16).
Jude 7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
Sodom and Gomorrah were consumed, and are no longer in torment.
jimmyray, I asked you a fair & reasonable question. Well, more than one, but I’m most interested in your answer to the question re: degrees of punishment. In your reply, you asked a lot of questions. You pointedly did not answer mine. First, answer my question, please. Give me a chance to see what you think about degrees of punishment, and give me a chance as well to respond. Then we can move on.
Thank you in advance.
This question exists on both sides of the Annihilation debate. Either side acknowledges that those without their names in the Book of Life will be cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:15). I understand that they are consumed, whilst you assert they exist in immortal bodily life being punished for eternity. I have no idea how those tossed in will be punished, or how long it lasts. It is nowhere spelt out in scripture, nor do I see a need for conjecture on the point. As Paul said in 1 Cor 4:6 " "Do not go beyond what is written."".
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