Posted on 05/26/2014 7:44:27 PM PDT by discipler
When it comes to the topic of if a Christian can fall from God's grace, the "once saved, always saved" people bring up the sheep example. Very oddly, they miss something.
Jesus said, "28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand." John 10:28f. Jesus also said earlier, "11 I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. 12 “He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. 13 “He flees because he is a hired hand and is not concerned about the sheep. 14 “I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me," John 10:11ff.
What do the Calvinistic "perseverence of the saints" folks miss in these verses?
What they miss is two things, 1] the wolves can and are destroying sheep, and 2] sheep sometimes stray from the good shepherd. The prodigal son had a good father and yet he was able to leave. While we faithful have great security in Christ, when we are weak in faith and when we listen to the false teachers, we can be led astray and lose our salvation.
Romans 8:37-39 is a good passage to show that external things cannot separate us from the love of God. That equates with great security for our salvation in Christ. So don't lose heart. But a rebellious Christian can depart from God. As sheep sometimes go astray from the flock, so Christians can quit listening to the voice of the great Shepherd and go the path of destruction. Said in love, Discipler
I do not apologize for God’s Word and it’s truth, and I am no rookie in God’s kingdom...I feel sorry for you because the Scriptures are right and you are wrong. period. That is my last comment on the subject.
Thank you for those comments...I see you are quite knowledgeable oin the Word.
There are some who do not have a teachable spirit and would argue their lie opposing Scripture’s divine inspiration, just to be right, and no amount of discussion will change that.
Be blessed.
When we were saved, there were no earth-shaking changes in our powers, if any. But the earliest Christians--all Jews--received powers, on or shortly after the Day of Pentecost, that we can barely imagine:
"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover." (Mk 16:17-18 KJV)
That places Hebrews 6 in an entirely different light:
"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." (Heb 6:4-6 KJV)
Almost immediately after the Day of Pentecost there was an attempt by traditional Jews to "Judaize" those who had received the new powers. In the Acts, the epistles, and in the letters to the seven churches of Asia, some of those attempts are documented. Apparently some were successful, hence Hebrews 6.
This discussion also helped me understand more clearly another scripture I have long pondered: blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. How can you blaspheme something you have never seen or experienced? (well, other than believing you are God, like some of the early Roman emperors, and a few politicians of late? LOL!)
But the earliest Christians knew the Holy Ghost: they received its special powers; and much was expected of them. However, we who called upon the name of the Lord to be saved have received no special powers; therefore not as much is expected of us. At least, that is the way I interpret this verse:
"For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required . . ." (Luke 12:48 KJV)
Philip
YOUR COMMENT: “This discussion also helped me understand more clearly another scripture I have long pondered: blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. How can you blaspheme something you have never seen or experienced? (well, other than believing you are God, like some of the early Roman emperors, and a few politicians of late? LOL!)”
My paraphrasing:
I think that may clear up the well known saying ‘do not take the Lord’s name in vain” as well. We all know cursing is profanity and it is addressed separately along with other sins, but it isn’t what is called ‘Blasphemy’...you are correct.
Christians are in the ‘ARMY OF GOD’ even Scripture refers to it that way. Ephesians Chapter Six describes the Helmet of Salvation (that alone says there is more to the Christian walk once you have Salvation) To prepare for battle one must have all of the Armour of God after Salvation...and Ephesians Chapter Six goes on to talk of how to put on THE WHOLE ARMOUR OF GOD. The list provided with his instruction is to stand Firm with the following:
Belt of Truth, Breastplate of Righteousness, Gospel of Truth and Shield of Faith; Helmet of Salvation, Sword of the Spirit (God’s Word), Pray in the Spirit always (You and I know what that means (signs) so many do not.
What soldier goes into battle with only his helmet on? Naked and exposed to the enemy, of course his battle with sin will be lost.
To make another point is if we are an Army, do we not have Generals and the descending order of Officers, the lower enlisted grades, infantry, and those who repair, mend, and help heal the wounded? Are there not Special Forces who go where others cannot, and do special missions others are not equipped to do? ‘To whom much is given much is required’ and that requires special training in the spirit.
Those who see only one dimension of God’s Word miss the Glory of Who Christians Are and How To Fight The Battles as an Army undivided with a Mission...in order to win the WAR against Evil. Thank God he has thosen those who aren’t one dimensional...but who understand that all battles are won in the spirit before they are won in the natural.....PRAYER AND PRAISE ARE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION in GOD’S KINGDOM.
Thanks for you thoughtful comments.
Philip
Yoohoooo Boaty post 100 desperately needs a reply. Surely the great bible scholar that you are should be able to dismantle my position in several short sentences. wait here’s an idea why don’t you get your posse to help you. surely 12-15 of you prots should be able to handle it with no trouble. Unless of course your silence is consenting that the Catholic Church has been right about this all along.
Can you explain the meaning of the following: “If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.” -John 15:6
You should be very careful about this.
Doctrinally, the Hebrews 6:4-6 passage seems to make much more sense when it applies to initial efficacious grace.
An unbeliever, who first hears the Gospel and understands it, is initially called by God the Father. At that time, the unbeliever may experience action by God the Holy Spirit, but if He refuses to believe and rejects the grace, then it might be the case that he doesn’t receive that again.
Key words in the passage are :
once enlightened: PHOTIZO means illuminated or to have light rays or shed light on,...once refers to HAPAX, one time or a single time. A believer who has anytime with God after salvation has received light everytime he studies the Word.
Tasted: GEUOMAI : figuratively to experience or taste or eat; same figurative speech is made in the Tabernacle of intake of the Word with the Loaves of Shewbread, each representing a Tribe of Israel.
Heavenly: EPOURANIUS : pertaining to the heavens as in the abode of God the Father. This would be consistent with the gift coming from God the Father, vice God the Holy Spirit who indwells us.
Gift: DOREA: Gift/Gratuity Could apply to initial efficacious grace or later.
word: RHEMA: and utterance,..note LOGOS was not used here. This may lend more weight on an actual utterance from God the Father to the unbeliever about to receive the Gospel.
Power: DUNAMIS: specifically force, might, specifically miraculous power (usually by implication a miracle itself); Initial saving grace from God would provide this.
world to come: AION: Note COSMOS is not used here as “world” but rather a term for Age or period in the future
MELLO: to come; a stengthened form of MELO or “of interest” with intent to happen.
Fall away: PARAPIPTO; fall aside
Renew: ANAKAINIZO again make fresh KAINOS is to freshen, while a new with respect to age is NEOS
Again: PALIN : once more as in oscillatory repetition
repentance: METANOIA : change of mind or thinking
open shame: PARADEIGMATIZO Expose to infamy.
Heb 6:4-6
(4) For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened(shined upon once), and have tasted of the heavenly gift (from God the Father), and were made partakers(sharers) of the Holy Ghost,
(5) And have tasted the good word(utterance) of God, and the powers of the world(age) to come (intended),
(6) If they shall fall away(fall aside), to renew(again freshen) them again unto repentance (change of thinking); seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame (expose to infamy).
If we think this applies to believers with salvation, then we are led down a road of qualifying which sins are extreme enough to remove salvation. This approach fails to recognize the meaning of the Cross and what was provided to all mankind by the work of Christ on the Cross.
It is consistent to understand this as a condemnation of those who have received efficacious grace, who do not have a living human spirit in which to understand the Gospel, but by His grace are shown it’s meaning, as Peter was shown in Matt 16:17. As a counterargument for those who believe we can lose our salvation as believers, this would also apply to Peter. While He accepted the gift, he later denied Christ three times. The recent interpretations of the Hebrew verse, if applicable to believers, would also have to account for Peter in his 3-time denial of Christ.
Some think the passage applies to believers and the falling away refers to an apostasy. Note APOSTASIA or separative divorce is not used here, rather a word for falling aside. If so, then Peter’s denial would be far more applicable to Hebrews 6:4-6. IMHO, it only applies to those who are initially given efficacious grace by God the Father and shared the experience of God the Holy SPirit, and then fall away, instead of accepting Him. The reason is not in regards to forgiveness, but instead the glory of Christ would be held in infamy.
On the contrary, when we are sealed, even if we fall away, if we change our mind and return to Him and confess to Him, He is sure and just to forgive us our sins.
IMHO, the passage is applicable to unbelievers only when they are directly given an utterance from God the Father and reject it.
Note also, an unbeliever might hear the WORD of God (LOGOS) many times and reject it, and still have an opportunity at salvation, but when God the Father who knows all things, utters it to the unbeliever, and the unbeliever remains fallen, then I understand how this would apply.
Perhaps it is more applicable than I understand, but this seems much more consistent to me that any indication a believer may lose their salvation, once he is saved.
I haven’t fully addressed context yet, so feel free to comment.
bump to boatbums
Read it again. They are the sheep of the hireling.
The Good Shepherd's sheep don't get snatched.
In the Church of Thyatira, some of the church member sheep follow the wolf Jezebel. Jesus says to the remaining CHRISTIANS: "Now I say to the rest of you in Thyatira...hold on"
Reply? What is so desperate? There is no question, no commentary of your own...just a bunch of isolated scripture verses copy/pasted from source which you didn't even bother to provide links to.
Your position, as can be determined evidenced by your overall style & approach; is as those to whom Christ spoke the following; Matthew 11;
16 “But to what shall I liken this generation? It is like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling to their companions, 17 and saying:‘We played the flute for you,
And you did not dance;
We mourned to you,
And you did not lament.’18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon.’ 19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Look, a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ But wisdom is justified by her children.”
The Good Shepherd's sheep don't get snatched.
[dude!] You rock,
like Augustine said of Peter.
Just got off the phone with Fatheroffive and I pretty much nailed your response. You said scripture interprets scripture, I quote scripture and you refuse to address the dichotomy, between you position that the Eucharist is a metaphor and God the Fathers own words.
I agree, we SHOULD be very careful about verses like this. On face value, it looks like Jesus is speaking of the need for us to bear fruit in order to "abide" in Him and, if we don't, we are going to hell. Once again, this kind of interpretation comes from a preconceived idea that genuine salvation is something we can lose. Taken from the view that I believe IS Scriptural - and takes into account other passages that speak about the grace of God and our justification through faith in Christ - I get a different meaning.
A Bible commentary called "Barnes' Notes on the Bible" has this to say about that verse, that I think mirrors what I also think it means:
Is cast forth - See the notes at John 15:2. Also Matthew 8:12; Matthew 22:13.
Is withered - Is dried up. A branch cut off withers. So of a soul unconnected with Christ, however fair it may have appeared. and however flourishing when a profession of religion was first made, yet when it is tried, and it is seen that there was no true grace, everything withers and dies. The zeal languishes, the professed love is gone, prayer is neglected, the sanctuary is forsaken, and the soul becomes like a withered branch reserved for the fire of the last great day. See a beautiful illustration of this in Ezekiel 15:1-8.
Men gather them - The word "men" is not in the original, and should not have been in the translation. The Greek is "they gather them," a form of expression denoting simply they are gathered, without specifying by whom it is done. From Matthew 13:40-42, it seems that it will be done by the angels. The expression means, as the withered and useless branches of trees are gathered for fuel, so shall it be with all hypocrites and false professors of religion. http://biblehub.com/commentaries/john/15-6.htm
The genuine, born again believer in Christ, indwelt by the Holy Spirit as the "earnest of our inheritance", WILL always abide in Christ because Christ abides in him and will "never leave nor forsake" him nor will He cast us out. There may come times in all our lives where we go through down times - and a snapshot of our "fruitfulness" at that one point in time may appear to be unfruitful. Does that mean we get one chance and if we blow it we're doomed forever? I don't think so. Abiding in Christ is what belonging to Him means - there are those who are IN Christ and everyone else is NOT in Christ. At the final judgment, those who are not in Christ will be cast into hell.
I still won't take the bait. We have hashed and rehashed and hashed again the subject of the Eucharist, and unless there is some indication that your heart has softened enough to actually hear what I think about it (and I get nothing so far), I will choose to spend my time on other threads. Real sorry if that disappoints you guys, but you're big boys, I think you will get over it.
>>>I haven’t fully addressed context yet, so feel free to comment.<<<
That is a very good exegetical analysis.
One point I question is your implication that DUNAMIS (doo’-nam-is) means anything other that miraculous power, particularly in light of the immediate context “of the world (age) to come.” Another might be PARAPIPTO (par-ap-ip’-to), which can also mean “to apostatize,” also in light of the context.
In any case, my points are highly subjective.
Thanks,
Philip
BWAHAHAHA, Translation: Catholics are correct and prots can’t refute it and refuse to admit it.
FYI...you need a new translator.
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