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"Orans" Posture and Hand-Holding During the Our Father -- Two Liturgical Abuses at Once
Biblical Evidence for Catholicism ^ | July 07, 2008 | Dave Armstrong

Posted on 05/15/2014 8:58:50 PM PDT by Salvation

Monday, July 07, 2008

"Orans" Posture and Hand-Holding During the Our Father Are Against the Rubrics (Instructions) For the Mass

 



Two liturgical abuses at once: "orans" posture and hand-holding during the Our Father

[ source ]

 


Colin B. Donovan, STL, over at the EWTN website, states that the "orans' posture in the congregation (arms outstretched in a "praying" or adoration position) is contrary to the rubrics:

The liturgical use of this position by the priest is spelled out in the rubrics (the laws governing how the Mass is said). It indicates his praying on BEHALF of us, acting as alter Christus as pastor of the flock, head of the body. . . .
It is never done by the Deacon, who does not represent the People before God but assists him who does.
Among the laity this practice began with the charismatic renewal. Used in private prayer it has worked its way into the Liturgy. It is a legitimate gesture to use when praying, as history shows, however, it is a private gesture when used in the Mass and in some cases conflicts with the system of signs which the rubrics are intended to protect. The Mass is not a private or merely human ceremony. The symbology of the actions, including such gestures, is definite and precise, and reflects the sacramental character of the Church's prayer. . . .
Our Father. The intention for lay people using the Orans position at this time is, I suppose, that we pray Our Father, and the unity of people and priest together is expressed by this common gesture of prayer. Although this gesture is not called for in the rubrics, it does at least seem, on the surface, to not be in conflict with the sacramental sign system at the point when we pray Our Father. I say on the surface, however, since while lay people are doing this the deacon, whose postures are governed by the rubrics, may not do it. So, we have the awkward disunity created by the priest making an appropriate liturgical gesture in accordance with the rubrics, the deacon not making the same gesture in accordance with the rubrics, some laity making the same gesture as the priest not in accordance with the rubrics, and other laity not making the gesture (for various reasons, including knowing it is not part of their liturgical role). In the end, the desire of the Church for liturgical unity is defeated.
After Our Father. This liturgical disunity continues after the Our Father when some, though not all, who assumed the Orans position during the Our Father continue it through the balance of the prayers, until after "For thine is the kingdom etc." The rubrics provide that priest-concelebrants lower their extended hands, so that the main celebrant alone continues praying with hands extended, since he represents all, including his brother priests. So, we have the very anomalous situation that no matter how many clergy are present only one of them is praying with hands extended, accompanied by numbers of the laity.
So, while we shouldn't attribute bad will to those who honestly have felt that there was some virtue in doing this during the Mass, it is yet another case where good will can achieve the opposite of what it intends when not imbued with the truth, in this case the truth about the sacramental nature of the postures at Mass and their meaning.

Catholic apologist Jimmy Akin, in an article about postures during the Our Father, agrees, and provides more documentation:

The Holy See has been concerned about the laity unduly aping the priest at Mass, and in the 1997 Instruction on Collaboration, an unprecedented conjunction of Vatican dicasteries wrote:

6 § 2. To promote the proper identity (of various roles) in this area, those abuses which are contrary to the provisions of canon 907 [i.e., "In the celebration of the Eucharist, deacons and lay persons are not permitted to say the prayers, especially the eucharistic prayer, nor to perform the actions which are proper to the celebrating priest."] are to be eradicated. In eucharistic celebrations deacons and non-ordained members of the faithful may not pronounce prayers — e.g. especially the eucharistic prayer, with its concluding doxology — or any other parts of the liturgy reserved to the celebrant priest. Neither may deacons or non-ordained members of the faithful use gestures or actions which are proper to the same priest celebrant. It is a grave abuse for any member of the non-ordained faithful to "quasi preside" at the Mass while leaving only that minimal participation to the priest which is necessary to secure validity.

This instruction, incidentally, was approved by John Paul II in forma specifica, meaning that the pope invested it with his own authority and is binding on us with the pope's authority and not merely the authority of the authoring congregations.
Now, what gestures are proper to the priest celebrant? The orans gesture when praying on behalf of the people is certainly one of them.

An article in Adoremus Bulletin offers yet more proof that this is an abuse:
Many AB readers have been asking about the orans posture during the Our Father (orans means praying; here it refers to the gesture of praying with uplifted hands, as the priest does during various parts of the Mass).
In some dioceses in the United States, people are being told that they should adopt this gesture, though it is not a customary posture for prayer for Catholic laity. Sometimes people are told that their bishop mandates this change because the new General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM) requires it or at least encourages it.
Thus it may be helpful to review the actual regulations on the orans posture.
Wht does the GIRM say?
First of all, nowhere in the current (2002) General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM) does it say that the orans posture is recommended for the congregation during the Our Father.

In GIRM 43 and 160, the paragraphs dealing with the people's posture during Mass, the only posture specified for the congregation at the Lord's Prayer is standing. It says nothing at all about what people do with their hands. This is not a change from the past.

The confusion arose among bishops in the 1990s, when some were suggesting the orans position in the ICEL Sacramentary, but not in the new Roman Missal. But even the Sacramentary revision was "specifically rejected by the Holy See after the new Missal appeared." The article continues:

At their November 2001 meeting, the bishops discussed "adaptations" to the new Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani (or GIRM) of the new Missal (reported in AB February 2002). The proposal to introduce the orans posture for the people was not included even as an option in the US' "adaptations" to the GIRM.
Furthermore, the bishops did not forbid hand-holding, either, even though the BCL originally suggested this in 1995. The reason? A bishop said that hand-holding was a common practice in African-American groups and to forbid it would be considered insensitive.
Thus, in the end, all reference to any posture of the hands during the Our Father was omitted in the US-adapted GIRM. The orans posture is not only not required by the new GIRM, it is not even mentioned.
The approved US edition of the GIRM was issued in April 2003, and is accessible on the USCCB web site - http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/current/revmissalisromanien.shtml
Not on the list
The posture of the people during prayer at Mass is not one of the items in the GIRM list that bishop may change on his own authority (see GIRM 387). Thus it is not legitimate for a bishop to require people to assume the orans posture during the Our Father.
The GIRM does say that a bishop has the "responsibility above all for fostering the spirit of the Sacred Liturgy in the priests, deacons, and faithful". He has the authority to see that practices in his diocese conform to the norms liturgical law, . . .

Holding hands during the Our Father is also clearly against the rubrics: thus should not be done on that basis alone. Catholic apologist Karl Keating wrote about this:

ORIGINS OF HAND-HOLDING
The current issue of the "Adoremus Bulletin" says this in response to a query from a priest in the Bronx:
"No gesture for the people during the Lord's Prayer is mentioned in the official documents. The late liturgist Fr. Robert Hovda promoted holding hands during this prayer, a practice he said originated in Alcoholics Anonymous. Some 'charismatic' groups took up the practice."
My long-time sense had been that hand-holding at the Our Father was an intrusion from charismaticism, but I had not been aware of the possible connection with AA. If this is the real origin of the practice, it makes it doubly odd: first, because hand-holding intrudes a false air of chumminess into the Mass (and undercuts the immediately-following sign of peace), and second, because modifications to liturgical rites ought to arise organically and not be borrowed from secular self-help groups.
Periodically, on "Catholic Answers Live" I am asked about hand-holding during Mass and explain that it is contrary to the rubrics. Usually I get follow-up e-mails from people who say, "But it's my favorite part of the Mass" or "We hold hands as a family, and it makes us feel closer."
About the latter I think, "It's good to feel close as a family, but you can hold hands at home or at the mall. The Mass has a formal structure that should be respected. That means you forgo certain things that you might do on the outside."
About the former comment I think, "If this is the high point of the Mass for you, you need to take Remedial Mass 101. The Mass is not a social event. It is the re-presentation of the sacrifice of Calvary, and it is the loftiest form of prayer. It should be attended with appropriate solemnity."

* * * * *


Further comments, from interaction on the CHNI board. The words of Rick Luquette over there will be in
green (official documents indented and in regular black) :
Currently the following is found from the USCCB Committee on Divine Worship:

Many Catholics are in the habit of holding their hands in the “Orans” posture during the Lord’s prayer along with the celebrant. Some do this on their own as a private devotional posture while some congregations make it a general practice for their communities.
Is this practice permissible under the current rubrics, either as a private practice not something adopted by a particular parish as a communal gesture?
No position is prescribed in the present Sacramentary for an assembly gesture during the Lord’s Prayer.

Well (to use the logical technique of reductio ad absurdum), if all gestures are left open, then could congregations spontaneously decide to hug one another during the Our Father? Or how about lifting up one arm heavenward? Or all turning towards each other (i.e., the center of the church)?
The General Instructions of the Roman Missal includes the following:

390. It is up to the Conferences of Bishops to decide on the adaptations indicated in this General Instruction and in the Order of Mass and, once their decisions have been accorded the recognitio of the Apostolic See, to introduce them into the Missal itself.

These adaptations include
The gestures and posture of the faithful (cf. no. 43 above);
The gestures of veneration toward the altar and the Book of the Gospels (cf. no. 273 above);
The texts of the chants at the entrance, at the presentation of the gifts, and at Communion (cf. nos. 48, 74, 87 above);
The readings from Sacred Scripture to be used in special circumstances (cf. no. 362 above);
The form of the gesture of peace (cf. no. 82 above);
The manner of receiving Holy Communion (cf. nos. 160, 283 above);
The materials for the altar and sacred furnishings, especially the sacred vessels, and also the materials, form, and color of the liturgical vestments (cf. nos. 301, 326, 329, 339, 342-346 above).
Directories or pastoral instructions that the Conferences of Bishops judge useful may, with the prior recognitio of the Apostolic See, be included in the Roman Missal at an appropriate place.

So it appears that at present, there is no recommended position for the hands of the faithful at the Our Father.
I should think it is obvious that it would be either hands at the side or clasped or in the hands-joined prayer position. But is not the orans position specifically prohibited, since it is imitating the posture of the priest? As Colin B. Donovan wrote (as I cited):

. . . since while lay people are doing this the deacon, whose postures are governed by the rubrics, may not do it. So, we have the awkward disunity created by the priest making an appropriate liturgical gesture in accordance with the rubrics, the deacon not making the same gesture in accordance with the rubrics, some laity making the same gesture as the priest not in accordance with the rubrics, and other laity not making the gesture (for various reasons, including knowing it is not part of their liturgical role). In the end, the desire of the Church for liturgical unity is defeated.

Also, Jimmy Akin cited the 1997 Instruction on Collaboration (specifically approved by Pope John Paul II):

Neither may deacons or non-ordained members of the faithful use gestures or actions which are proper to the same priest celebrant. It is a grave abuse for any member of the non-ordained faithful to "quasi preside" at the Mass while leaving only that minimal participation to the priest which is necessary to secure validity.

That precludes the orans position, though it itself doesn't seem to prohibit hand-holding (because the priest is not doing that at this time). What is your counter-explanation for that? What you decline to call any abuse at all is called "abuses" and "a grave abuse" by this papally-approved document. If bishops say otherwise, then the faithful Catholic still has the right to appeal to Church-wide proclamations from the Vatican, which carry more authority than bishops, and are to be followed in cases of contradiction. Some priests, however, have refused to give communion to a kneeling recipient, when the Church has specifically stated that all Catholics have a right to receive kneeling. The document above also made reference to Canon 907 from the Catholic Code of Canon Law:

Can. 907 In the eucharistic celebration deacons and lay persons are not permitted to offer prayers, especially the eucharistic prayer, or to perform actions which are proper to the celebrating priest.

Lacking specific instruction from the competent authority (the USCCB) you quote Jimmy Akin as saying holding hands during the Our Father is contrary to the rubrics. Following the link you provided to his article, he states:

Standing means standing without doing anything fancy with your arms.

This appears to be his rationale for declaring that holding hands is against the rubrics. Unfortunately, he does not give any authoritative reference for this statement. To the best of my knowledge, the definition of the word "standing" does not include "without doing anything fancy with your arms".
Let me cite him at greater length from this article:

Standing means standing without doing anything fancy with your arms. It is distinct, for example, from the orans posture, which the priest uses when he stands and prays with arms outstretched. It is also distinct from the hand-holding posture.
The latter is not expressly forbidden in liturgical law because it is one of those "Please don't eat the daisies" situations. The legislator (the pope) did not envision that anybody would try to alter the standing posture in this way. As a result, the practice is not expressly forbidden, the same way that standing on one foot and hopping up and down as an effort to get closer to God in heaven is not expressly forbidden.
In general what liturgical documents do is to say what people should be doing and not focus on what they should not be doing (though there are exceptions). To prevent "Please don't eat the daisies" situations, what the law does is prohibit things that aren't mentioned in the liturgical books. Here's the basic rule:

Can. 846 §1. In celebrating the sacraments the liturgical books approved by competent authority are to be observed faithfully; accordingly, no one is to add, omit, or alter anything in them on one’s own authority.

Akin is not the magisterium, of course, but he is a highly respected apologist who has written a book about rubrics in the Mass (Mass Confusion: The Do's and Don'ts of Catholic Worship; San Diego: Catholic Answers, 1999). He also regularly cites folks like canon lawyer Dr. Edward Peters (who has written about liturgical confusion and need for further codification).
He also says:

Changing from standing to hand holding during the Lord's Prayer would be an alteration or addition of something provided for in the liturgical books and thus would be at variance with the law.

Sneezing is an addition not provided in the liturgical books either. Standing and hand-holding are not either/or positions; they are both/and. I can hold hands while I stand.
I can also hug, kiss, clasp my hands far above my head, make a peace sign, clench my fists, point my fingers towards the priest with arms outstretched, or straight up, pick wax out of my ear, scratch my head, comb my hair, wave, put my hands on my waist (like an outfielder in baseball) and do any number of things while standing, that are not mentioned, either. Quite obviously a line has to be drawn somewhere. If these things were spontaneously introduced by the laity during Mass, then the Church has a right to more specifically define what can or can't be done (and folks should be reasonable in interpreting what "standing" means).
Isn't it common sense, anyway that "stand" means standing without implied reference to anything else (though not necessarily precluding gestures)? If one is, for example, told to stand in a courtroom, they wouldn't stand in the orans posture or hold someone's hands while standing, or put their hands on the top of their head. It would never cross their mind. So why would it be different in church?
I can assume the Orans posture while standing.
Not (or so it seems) according to Canon 907 and the high-level Instruction on Collaboration and deductively from the fact that even a deacon cannot do so. The laity can spontaneously do what a deacon cannot do?
Zenit, in a Q & A with Father Edward McNamara, professor of liturgy at the Regina Apostolorum Pontifical Athenaeum, provides the following:

Some readers asked if the U.S. bishops' vote against allowing the "orantes" posture meant that this gesture was forbidden in the United States. The bishops, in deciding not to prescribe or suggest any particular gesture during the Our Father, did not therefore proscribe any particular gesture either.
The bishops' conference decision does limit the possibility of another authority such as a pastor or even a diocesan bishop from prescribing this gesture as obligatory. But it need not constrain an individual from adopting the "orantes" posture nor, in principle, stop a couple or small group from spontaneously holding hands.
While holding hands during the Our Father is very much a novelty in the millenarian history of Catholic liturgy, the "orantes" posture, as one reader from Virginia reminds us, is as old as Christianity, is depicted in the catacombs, has always been preserved in the Eastern rites and was not reserved to the priest until after several centuries in the Latin rite -- and even then not everywhere.
The controversy regarding the use of the "orantes" posture for the Our Father appears to be confined to the English-speaking world. In many other places, it is pacifically accepted as an optional gesture which any member of the community is free to perform if so inclined.

I think this is interesting in light of the other things mentioned above. I'd sincerely like to see how Fr. McNamara harmonizes them.
So the Orans (or orantes) posture is not forbidden; it is a historical posture of the Church, and it is commonly accepted throughout the world.
It was not a common posture during Mass, according to canon lawyer Edward Peters, who observed:

While the orans position as such has a rich tradition in Jewish and even ancient Christian prayer life, there is no precedent for Catholic laity assuming the orans position in Western liturgy for at least a millennium and a half; that point alone cautions against its introduction without careful thought. Moreover — and notwithstanding the fact that few liturgical gestures are univocal per se — lay use of the orans gesture in Mass today, besides injecting gestural disunity in liturgy, could further blur the differences between lay liturgical roles and those of priests just at a time when distinctions between the baptismal priesthood and the ordained priesthood are struggling for a healthy articulation.

The previous Zenit article in the series includes the following statement from Fr. McNamara regarding the Orans/Orantes posture:

Despite appearances, this gesture is not, strictly speaking, a case of the laity trying to usurp priestly functions.
The Our Father is the prayer of the entire assembly and not a priestly or presidential prayer. In fact, it is perhaps the only case when the rubrics direct the priest to pray with arms extended in a prayer that he does not say alone or only with other priests. Therefore, in the case of the Our Father, the orantes posture expresses the prayer directed to God by his children.
The U.S. bishops' conference debated a proposal by some bishops to allow the use of the orantes posture while discussing the "American Adaptations to the General Instruction to the Roman Missal" last year. Some bishops even argued that it was the best way of ridding the country of holding hands. The proposal failed to garner the required two-thirds majority of votes, however, and was dropped from the agenda.

Fr. McNamara adds that this posture is accepted and officially recommended in Italy, with Vatican approval.
As I have said before, I am not in favor of holding hands during the Our Father. I accept the Orans posture but would quite happily do without it. However, given that there are no instructions to the contrary (and the document quoted by Mr. Akin is intended to address a completely different issue), I see no prohibition against it.

Then I look forward to your counter-explanations of what I have reiterated above. Thanks for the discussion.



TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Evangelical Christian; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic; orans; ourfather
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To: aMorePerfectUnion

Sacraments are instituted by Christ to give grace.
Baptism — Christ’s Baptism sets the scene
Eucharist — at the Last Supper
Confirmation — Pentacost
Reconciliation, Penance — Christ forgave sins and gave the apostles that power too.
Anointing of the Sick — How many people did Christ heal?
Marriage — Wedding at Cana where Christ worked his first miracle
Holy Orders — Sending out the apostles, then the 72, breathing and laying hands on them.


141 posted on 05/16/2014 6:40:38 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: NKP_Vet
Protestants are on their own, they can believe anything they feel like believing, with everyone right about scripture. Just ask them. No authority to turn to, no nothing.

Actually it's the Catholics who "can believe anything they feel like believing, with everyone right about scripture. Just ask them. No authority to turn to, no nothing." Take a look at Joe Biden, Nancy Pelosi, John Kerry, the Kennedy clan, etc. These people are pro-murder (abortion), pro divorce, pro fornication sans marriage, all very in view of the public eye and yet the Catholic church does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to discipline them.

If public people did that in my church they'd be asked to change their ways or leave.

142 posted on 05/16/2014 7:03:51 PM PDT by 2nd amendment mama ( www.2asisters.org | Self defense is a basic human right!)
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To: Jvette

“I think the timing is a little off but not sure where I would put it instead of its current place.”

How about outside the church after Mass?


143 posted on 05/16/2014 7:07:23 PM PDT by dsc (Any attempt to move a government to the left is a crime against humanity.)
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To: dsc

LOL, I know lots of people that would go along with that!


144 posted on 05/16/2014 7:23:51 PM PDT by Jvette
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To: dsc

I see what you did there:) Good call.


145 posted on 05/16/2014 7:28:39 PM PDT by Jvette
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To: NKP_Vet; aMorePerfectUnion

Sure. And all those priest diddling little boys are just paragons of virtue.

Those priests. They’re all the same. Perverts all.


146 posted on 05/16/2014 7:28:55 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith....)
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To: Salvation

Oh, Salvation, I know the standard Catholic line.

But of course, Christ never said anything at all about sacraments giving grace. Nor is that teaching in the inspired Scriptures. Nor is it found during the first 100 years of the church.


147 posted on 05/16/2014 7:32:36 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion ( "I didn't leave the Central Oligarchy Party. It left me." - Ronaldus Magnimus, 2014)
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To: 2nd amendment mama

I’ve been in Protestant churches where members have been *disfellowshipped* (so to speak) IOW, removed from the membership roles for tame things like garden variety adultery or dishonest business practices.

They were approached by the leadership and would not change, so they were gone.

They were not given a church sanctioned funeral, being told they were right with God now.

I think I see the problem though. The Catholic church can’t ex-communicate the laity who live sinful, hedonistic lives because that would mean they’d have to apply the same standard to the clergy and it would more than decimate their ranks, which are in a world of hurt already.


148 posted on 05/16/2014 7:34:57 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith....)
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To: metmom

John 15:4-6

New Living Translation (NLT)

4 Remain in me, and I will remain in you. For a branch cannot produce fruit if it is severed from the vine, and you cannot be fruitful unless you remain in me.

5 “Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me, and I in them, will produce much fruit. For apart from me you can do nothing. 6 Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned.

******So the Catholic church tells people they’re going to hell if they don’t get right with Catholicism.*****

Another erroneous understanding of Catholicism.

Why is it that protestants, supposedly so well versed in Scripture, manage to miss the many dos and don’ts given in its pages?

A rhetorical question, since with protestants, one who does not remain in Christ was probably not with him in the first place. Yet, Jesus made this exhortation to His followers.


149 posted on 05/16/2014 7:38:18 PM PDT by Jvette
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To: Jvette
Another erroneous understanding of Catholicism.

From your own CCC

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

And a papal bull, spoken ex cathedra...

Pope Boniface VIII, Bull Unam sanctam (1302): "We are compelled in virtue of our faith to believe and maintain that there is only one holy Catholic Church, and that one is apostolic. This we firmly believe and profess without qualification. Outside this Church there is no salvation and no remission of sins, the Spouse in the Canticle proclaiming: 'One is my dove, my perfect one. One is she of her mother, the chosen of her that bore her' (Canticle of Canticles 6:8); which represents the one mystical body whose head is Christ, of Christ indeed, as God. And in this, 'one Lord, one faith, one baptism' (Ephesians 4:5). Certainly Noah had one ark at the time of the flood, prefiguring one Church which perfect to one cubit having one ruler and guide, namely Noah, outside of which we read all living things were destroyed… We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff."

— Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam (Promulgated November 18, 1302) "If, therefore, the Greeks or others say that they are not committed to Peter and to his successors, they necessarily say that they are not of the sheep of Christ, since the Lord says that there is only one fold and one shepherd (Jn.10:16). Whoever, therefore, resists this authority, resists the command of God Himself. " http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/b8-unam.html

Why is it that protestants, supposedly so well versed in Scripture, manage to miss the many dos and don’ts given in its pages?

We don't miss all the do's and don'ts in the Bible. Not by any means.

We just recognize that they do not save us. Salvation is by faith, as it always has been.

A rhetorical question, since with protestants, one who does not remain in Christ was probably not with him in the first place. Yet, Jesus made this exhortation to His followers.

It's not up to us to remain in Christ. God places us in Christ and has sealed our salvation with the promised Holy Spirit. We remain in Christ because of HIS faithfulness, not ours.

Security of the believer

John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

John 10:25-30 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.”

Ephesians 1:13-14 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Colossians 1:13-14 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Colossians 3:3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

2 Corinthians 5:4-8 For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

150 posted on 05/16/2014 7:54:24 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith....)
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To: Campion
our link is idiotic. I quote: In her effort to conform NT pastors to her erroneous understanding of the Lord's Supper (“Eucharist”), Catholicism came to render presbuteros” as “priests” Actually *ENGLISH* rendered "presbyteros" as "priests". It's where the word came from!!. See any dictionary.

No, it is your assertion, which was corrected before , that is unlearned. Dictionaries trace priests as coming from presbyteros, because that is where it is etymologically derived from, "Middle English preist, from Old English prēost, ultimately from Late Latin presbyter" (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/priest).

And Etymology is the study of the history of words, their origins, and evolving changes in form and meaning. over time . Etymologies are not definitions.

The etymological fallacy is a linguistic misconception, genetic fallacy, that holds, erroneously, that the present-day meaning of a word or phrase should necessarily be similar to its historical meaning. This the basis of your fallacious argument. You might as well argue that "apologia" in Scripture (1Pt. 3:15) must mean "to express regret for doing or saying something wrong" since that is a dictionary definition.

The fact is that the idea that presbuteros actually properly means priests is what is absurd, as it simply does not, but means elder, or senior. Any Greek lexicon will tell you that. Meanwhile the NT word for "priest" is a specific one, "hiereus" and out of 150 times in the NT it is NEVER used for NT pastors. A priest can be an elder, but elders preceded the Jewish priesthood, and is not the word for priest.

How then did presbuteros come to be rendered priest? Because of imposed functional equivalence, not because that is what the word meant in the NT, and was used by the Holy spirit to describe pastors. And He knows better than Rome.

"Priesthood as we know it in the Catholic church was unheard of during the first generation of Christianity, because at that time priesthood was still associated with animal sacrifices in both the Jewish and pagan religions." — Catholic Greg Dues in “Catholic Customs & Traditions

As R. J. Grigaitis (O.F.S.) states while also trying to justify the use of priest:

"The Greek word for this office is ‘ιερευς (hiereus), which can be literally translated into Latin as sacerdos. First century Christians [such as the inspired writers] felt that their special type of hiereus (sacerdos) was so removed from the original that they gave it a new name, presbuteros (presbyter). Unfortunately, sacerdos didn't evolve into an English word, but the word priest took on its definition." http://grigaitis.net/weekly/2007/2007-04-27.html

"So far as i know, it was only ca. 200 that the term “priest” started to be applied to the bishop and only still later was it applied to the presbyter... When the eucharist began to be thought of as a sacrifice, the person assigned to preside at the eucharist (bishop and later presbyter) would soon be called a priest, since priests were involved with sacrifice." — Raymond Brown (Sulpician Father and a prominent Biblical scholar), Q 95 Questions and Answers on the Bible, p. 125, with Imprimatur.

Some other Catholics also confess that “the Latin word presbyter has no lingual or morphological relationship with the Latin word sacerdos, but only an inherited semantical relationship.” - http://catholicforum.fisheaters.com/index.php?topic=744379.0;wap2z

As a result of this change, the CE states,

“presbyter soon lost its primitive meaning of "ancient" and was applied only to the minister of worship and of the sacrifice.“ - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12406a.htm)

Yet as Vines correctly states, "The NT knows nothing of a sacerdotal class in contrast to the laity; all believers are commanded to offer the sacrifices mentioned in Rom. 12:1; Phil. 2:17; 4:18; Heb. 13:15, 16; 1 Pet. 2:5; (d) of Christ, Heb. 5:6; 7:11, 15, 17, 21; 8:4 (negatively); (e) of Melchizedek, as the forshadower of Christ, Heb. 7:1, 3." -Vine's NT Dictionary.

The only sense in which pastors are priests is by being part of the general priesthood of all believers, as all are called to sacrifice. (1Pt. 2:5,9; Rm. 12:1; 15:16; Phil. 2:17; 4:18; Heb. 13:15,16; cf. 9:9)

Nowhere are NT pastors even shown distributing common bread as part of their pastoral functions, let alone turning it into human flesh and distributing it to be eaten to give spiritual and eternal life. What Rome considers paramount and central and common, the Holy Spirit fails to mention describe NT church pastors doing.

Unlike hiereus, presbuteros or episkopeō can be used interchangeably without distinction, as one denotes the position (senior) and the other the function (overseer). Titus was to “set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders [presbuteros] in every city, as I had appointed thee: If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. For a bishop [episkopos] must be blameless...” (Titus 1:5-7) Paul also "sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church," (Acts 20:17) who are said to be episkopos in v. 28. Elders are also who were ordained in Acts 14:23, and bishops along with deacons are the only two classes of clergy whom Paul addresses in writing to the church in Phil. 1:1.

Yeah, God wasted his time on the last night of his earthly life, instituting it in front of his closest friends, because it really wasn't all that important.

That is another logical fallacy, a false dilemma, supposing that the institution of the Lord Supper must mean that it either was the source and summit of the church life, or that the Lord wasted His time in instituting it.

However, going with the evidence, in which the Lord's supper is only manifestly described once in the life of the church and all the epistles to them, and which instance in 1Cor./ 11:13-34 has to do with the church as the body of Christ shows, declares, His death by how they partake of the communal meal, while the preaching and hearing of the word is what is said to "build" them up, (Acts 20:32) and "nourish" the believer, (1Tim. 4:6) then we see that the Lord's supper was important, and how, but that it was not the source and summit of the Christian life, thru which the work of our redemption is carried out.

Instead, the Lord "manifested his word through preaching," (Titus 1:3) with spiritual being gained by believing the gospel a faith which is counted for righteousness, and thus follows Christ.

151 posted on 05/16/2014 8:01:33 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: Salvation

A picture is worth a thousand deceptions.


152 posted on 05/16/2014 8:03:55 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion

If Christ did not bestow grace on the apostles when he breathed on them, then how did Peter and other Apostles work miracles?

Obvious answer — through the grace given by Jesus Christ.


153 posted on 05/16/2014 8:13:34 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: metmom

It’s amazing that in Protestant/Non-Denominational churches we banish/jail those who betray trust or commit crimes - not just shuffle them off to another parish!


154 posted on 05/16/2014 8:29:33 PM PDT by 2nd amendment mama ( www.2asisters.org | Self defense is a basic human right!)
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To: Salvation

“If Christ did not bestow grace on the apostles when he breathed on them, then how did Peter and other Apostles work miracles?”

You claim grace is was imparted by Christ breathing, which is not true, but let’s go with your logic!

If being breathed on imparts grace, why aren’t you breathed on during the “sacraments” you described earlier?

Why isn’t breathing itself a sacrament?

And to finish, prove that Christ breathing imparted “grace”. So far, you simply assumed, which is an opinion. Can you demonstrate and support your opinion with any facts?


155 posted on 05/16/2014 8:30:49 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion ( "I didn't leave the Central Oligarchy Party. It left me." - Ronaldus Magnimus, 2014)
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To: 2nd amendment mama

“And what if the Priest tells you to hold hands while saying The Lord’s Prayer? Is it wrong then?”

Yes.

“I was at Mass last Sunday and that is exactly what happened.”

See Pascendi Dominici Gregis, On The Doctrine of the Modernists, Encyclical of Pope Pius X, September 8, 1907.

“Honestly, I find the hostility to “touching” one another’s hands that has been demonstrated on this thread”

You misunderstand. There are sound theological grounds for rejecting the practice of hand-holding, which is why the Vatican has spoken out against it.

“What would you do if Jesus commanded you to wash anothers’ feet as an act of submission? Would you refuse?”

Of course not. Frankly, the fact that you would ask that question must be taken as an indication that you are assuming the worst of those who disagree.


156 posted on 05/16/2014 8:31:53 PM PDT by dsc (Any attempt to move a government to the left is a crime against humanity.)
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To: dsc
Frankly, the fact that you would ask that question must be taken as an indication that you are assuming the worst of those who disagree.

Well, considering those that lie to others while at Mass so that they don't have to shake hands, etc. are hypocrites of the worst order to me. Lying by "fake sneezing into a handkerchief" as some have said, lying by saying they have a cold as others have said.....all while supposedly being "reverent" at Mass is a sin!!! Absolute dishonor to God. Despicable.

157 posted on 05/16/2014 8:39:09 PM PDT by 2nd amendment mama ( www.2asisters.org | Self defense is a basic human right!)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion

That Sacrament is the Sacrament of Holy Orders. LOL! I can’t address it at all.


158 posted on 05/16/2014 8:39:17 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion

It’s in Scripture. Why isn’t that enough for you?


159 posted on 05/16/2014 8:40:23 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: 2nd amendment mama

“If public people did that in my church they’d be asked to change their ways or leave.”

You’re right, that should happen.

John Paul II didn’t do much if anything, which is one reason I am skeptical of his “greatness,” Benedict XVI did some, enough to get our hopes up, but now we have Francis...

It is a symptom of Satan’s attacks on the Church that so many enemies of the Church have so much power.


160 posted on 05/16/2014 8:40:49 PM PDT by dsc (Any attempt to move a government to the left is a crime against humanity.)
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