Perilous times for the church in America (vanity)

It's really hypocrisy for concern over the destruction of childhood and Christian morals in Western countries to come from anywhere near the Catholic Church, which consistently has talked out of both sides of its mouth. First, the Catholic Church probably did more than any other institution to promote the original shift in European culture away from God and onto man. That was partly what I learned in tenth-grade public-school European studies, without that much emphasis on the Catholic Church's role: that the Renaissance shifted society's focus from God to man as the "measure of all things." And we know that the Catholic Church heavily promoted and financed it, and since then has embraced man's knowledge and works of art for their own sake and ends in themselves. The Bible, though, says our focus should be singular, on God. Not on God and man, but God alone. To focus on both is to be "double-minded," which God's Word condemns. And nothing we do is our own to do, and we our not our own. God will give us what our hearts truly desire if we delight in Him, but only if we do.

But today, the church does less and less, while objecting to the world and its ways less and less. A primary way the church has let in Satan's work has been through worldly art and entertainment. To be sure, God doesn't excuse what He has called abominable immorality because there is some human "talent," even "genius," behind it. God gives the talent and genius, and it doesn't impress Him in the slightest, and neither does the artist or genius. In recent years an artist or photographer in Australia or New Zealand, I believe, whose works were fairly called child pornography, was defended by some, including some in Hollywood, because one could see his genuine artistic giftedness in his "work." It was high art while being child pornography. But again, God doesn't care about the talent He's given someone except for how it's used - either to glorify and serve Him, or to glorify and serve the purposes of His enemy.

And the God who considered our sin serious enough that He gave His Son to die on a cross as the only means for us to be forgiven for it and reconciled to Him, and the God who willed Christians to be eaten by lions and die other horrible deaths, including in this era, also does not put entertaining pampered, rich, whining, 21st-century American Christians, who have more wealth, creature comforts and security than any people ever, ahead of His demand for holiness. Not perfect holiness through works, but through an honest, humble and broken-hearted appraisal of our condition before Him (which is truly having no "rights" before Him except the right to exist forever in Hell) and that we should agree with Him and seek after His heart and what pleases Him.

That means, then, where we are weak, admitting it. The Bible says in the last days "perilous times" will come, and it is dangerous, indeed, that the rich American church, the Bible-believing church which is following now the same path already taken by the Catholic and mainline Protestant churches, today rationalizes and defends its embrace of so much that is clearly demonic and Satanic, and which hardens even children to sins that surpass that of Sodom and Gomorrah. This church more and more often only pays lip service to there being a difference between "being in the world" and "being of the world."

Why is America today like it is? Part of it undoubtedly has to be our riches. And what word does the Bible say that at one point Jesus used to describe riches? He spoke of the "deceitfulness of riches." They're deceitful. And what do they do? They give a false picture and false sense of reality. They give a false sense of confidence that the only true reality - God's Word - tells us that we should truly fear adopting. Reality can't be changed by wishful thinking, self-deception, or hiding behind ignorance or the idea that God will overlook things if we're just going along with today's crowd. Jesus said: "He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful," (Matthew 13:22). "Deceitfulness": 539 //apath//apate//ap-at'-ay// from 538; TDNT 1:385,65; n f AV - deceitfulness 3, deceitful 1, deceit 1, deceivableness 1, deceivings 1; 7 1) deceit, deceitfulness. And "riches": 4149 //ploutov//ploutos//ploo'-tos// from the base of 4130; TDNT - 6:318,873; n m AV - riches 22; 22 1) riches, wealth, 1a) abundance of external possessions, 1b) fulness, abundance, plenitude, 1c) a good i.e. that with which one is enriched (Strong's Greek definitions).

There's no room to get around it, especially when taken with what the Bible says as a whole: riches have a capacity to deceive. If we start to believe that we can follow our thoughts and feelings rather than God's Word, and believe that a loving God doesn't really mean the tough things that He's said which our flesh hates, then we can believe that riches have deceived us.

Since the 1950's, teen suicide has tripled; we hear all the time that teenagers are constantly using all sorts of substances for new "highs;" and they think nothing of "friends with benefits." And as we look at all the moral confusion around us, it is clear what the fruit of our society is and where it comes from. And back in the 1950's, Christians who spoke out about Elvis' gyrating hips, who warned that little compromises with immorality would someday lead to utter immorality in society, were ridiculed as alarmist. Even in the 1980's when I was growing up, liberals in the media would defend the latest celebrated perversion by Madonna by calling on people to remember how the silly Chicken Little "prudes" used to be alarmed by Elvis moving his hips, thinking that sexual immorality would run rampant, drawing us away from God. But one step at a time, we have become a solidly Satanic culture with the spiritual carnage all around us for us to see and experience every day, and even the church is largely dulled to sin and its horrible spiritual consequences, and embracing sin as really not bad. The world's "wisdom" now seems wise enough for us. But so many Christians are more concerned about being "too good" than in seeking after God's heart.

The Bible says that God has promised to send strong delusion: "And then shall that wicked one be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming— even him, whose coming is according to the working of Satan, with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all the deceit of unrighteousness in those who perish, because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie, that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness," (2 Thessalonians 2:8-12).

It wasn't the "sexual revolution" or anything so abstract that has brought the church in America, and America itself, to the points that they are each at. Christians have taken up with God's enemy and his ways, allowing him in by justifying this or that which he's done, and not from the Bible, but from "human reason." And we can be sure that there is always a price paid for that.

One of the lies of God's enemy and ours is that God's ways really aren't so satisfying. God's ways may not sometimes be as easy to access today as the enemy's, but they always give real satisfaction and enjoyment which never ends and only grows, while the Devil's is empty and satisfies only briefly, while breeding distress, hopelessness, confusion and destruction. God's ways produce the fruit of the Spirit, and they actually fulfill all the promises which the Devil makes to us but can't keep. Doing as James said, being a doer of the Word, and not a hearer only, which is just looking into the mirror and then forgetting what our faces look like. God is able and does mean to satisfy our souls all the time. As Christians know, slavish obedience to rules and worrying about right and wrong aren't what the Lord is after, but life, and life abundantly, as He has designed it in His infinite wisdom and not our limited understanding, is truly His will and desire for us.

Thank you! A very good word for today and the challenges we face as believers. I am doing a Kay Arthur study at my church on the first 10 chapters of Genesis, the creation, the fall and the flood. WOW! If people were only willing to see and hear with their spiritual eyes and ears, they’d be flabbergasted to see where we are, what the “time” is and how we need to prepare, but I agree with you that few there be who are really interested or care. Some talk a good talk, but it’s only talk. Judgment is coming to the just and the unjust. We MUST prepare and get ready!

First, the Catholic Church probably did more than any other institution to promote the original shift in European culture away from God and onto man.

Who do you think promoted the "original shift in European culture" toward the Judaeo-Christian God in the first place? Hint: it wasn't any of the Protestant churches, because they didn't exist yet, and wouldn't exist for a thousand years after Christianity was made legal in AD 313.

The Catholic Church has been in existence for nearly 2000 years, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.

So, what, you tightly cling to that often misinterpreted passage and ignore the very REAL prevalence of immorality, licentiousness, greed, love of wealth rather than love of God that exists in your church as well as many others? Nothing can ever be fixed if we pretend there is no problem.

These things are present in all peoples, in all countries, in all religions. Perhaps you can tell me why the Catholic Church is singled out repeatedly?

Did you read the OP or just reflexively react to the mention of the Catholic Church and moral failings?

It's kinda funny, though, most of the threads on the RF are singing the praises of the Roman Catholic Church - quite a few by you - yet it seems anytime someone NOT RC posts a thread, FRoman Catholics are on hair trigger alert to tamp down even the possibility of negative press. Why is that? Pro-Catholic threads often disparage non-Catholic denominations and presume a superior spiritual and theological attitude rather than rejoicing in our common tenets of the Christian faith. Had you read the OP, you would have seen a remorse over ALL churches in America sliding down a perilous slope and NOT just picking on the Catholics.

Why is the Catholic Church "singled" out repeatedly, you ask? How about, one, it's really not, and, two, you guys DO claim to be THE church Jesus established, so that HAS to come with some responsibility, doesn't it? How about you address the content of the OP and leave off the defensive posture for when it really needs to happen?

I share your concerns. What you’ve pointed out is the defect within human reason (due to our fallen and sinful nature) that leads to gross moral evil in our world. However, it is important to remember that it is our human reason in conjunction with our Faith that leads us to God. Furthermore we have to be mindful of tipping the scale too far in regard to favoring God’s Divinity or His Humanity. The extremes lead to heresy.

I remember Peter Kreeft (Boston U. prof) giving a talk wherein he told a story about taking a Muslim student to Mass with him. After the Mass the Muslim asked him, “Do you really believe that the bread and wine becomes God?” Professor Kreeft said, “Yes.” The Muslim responded, “If I believed that I would fall to floor and prostrate myself before God and would remain there for all eternity.”

The point of the story is to emphasize the nature of man. If we did as the Muslim did and attempt to worship God in such a manner it would be a denial of our humanity for we are incapable in our human form of such worship. It is the same with our reason which is extended into the arts and other forms of expression. We can’t deny it and we should embrace it, particularly when it does glorify God as you stated.

Man as the measure of all things goes all the way backs to the Greeks and throughout the centuries in rationalistic enlightenment thought. But up until that point I don’t believe it was the dominant form of thought. People didn’t say, “That’s your truth, I have my own thank you very much.” People who knew the truth oriented their lives to it. Today in our post-enlightenment modern world it is seen as optional. A sad state of affairs. But it was not always this way. I figure we’ll go back someday, if we make it to that point.

Anyway enough babbling. Peace be with you.

I can speak to this a little bit. While I am fairly new to posting on FR I’m not new to lurking and have been here on a daily basis for many years now lurking through the RF and reading the threads.

To be honest the reason I began posting was in response to the “negative press” being posted by others. So in that sense I should say thank you to you and other non-Catholic Christians for awakening within me the the desire to defend my Catholic faith.

While we are not to read the minds of other posters in the RF I don’t think it can be denied that the spirit in which that “negative press” is posted is less than charitable in most cases. There exists an air of triumphal derision in some of those postings that is quite unseemly.

I sympathize with Salvation and other long term “FRoman Catholics” who’ve beeen defending the Faith day-in and day-out for years, trying to do so in the most charitable manner possible. Sometimes that hasn’t always been possible and for me personally I couldn’t allow them to carry the burden by themselves any longer.

You are absolutely correct about the Catholic Church, however. Because we have been given the fullness of Truth and Faith (I know you will disagree) we have an obligation to defend the Faith. As it has been said the more that has been given the more that will be required. And each one of us responds according to our individual charism.

Having said all that, I recognize the spirit in which the OP was offered and I did respond in kind even though I didn’t agree with all of the conclusions that were proffered.

Peace be with you.

Revelation 3:14-22 14 “And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation.

“‘I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see. Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent.

Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me. The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’”

A cursory look at the condition of the most highly Catholic countries in this world now and in the past will show the fruits of Catholicism.

Those countries are and have been steeped in superstition and voo doo and syncretism. Catholicism has done precious little to pull those people out of spiritual darkness or improve their standard of living or moral situations. It has not cleared out corruption in their governments and life is not valued there.

Of those countries claiming a strong *Christian* influence, those whose *Christian* influence is primarily Catholicism are the most likely to resemble or be third world hell holes.

In this country, the Catholic voting patterns tend towards liberalism and socialism and were it not for the non-Catholic voting block, we would be in worse shape now than we are. I have personally only met one Catholic couple who votes conservative. The rest of the practicing Catholics (faithfully attend mass weekly and often on church holy days of obligation) I know for democratic in spite of the abortion issue because *yeah but.....the dems are “for the poor”*.

Sure. Supporting abortion sure helps the poor out, doesn’t it?

It should but ironically and hypocritically, they disavow themselves of the responsibility part of it and only want the applause and honor and ability to control.

What we here constantly in response to pointing out the Catholic church's moral failings is that, well people sin, nobody is perfect, they are just human like the rest of us.

The very Scripture they claim to have written, holds church leadership to a much higher standard of behavior than the *laity* and addresses church discipline. Neither of which the RCC hypocritically seems to be inclined to follow.

Standards for thee but not for me is their byword.

Catholic church, lead by example. If you want your congregants to lead holy and righteous lives, clean your own house first before sitting in judgment on others while giving your own corrupt immoral leaders, who don't even follow church teaching themselves, a pass.

Furthermore we have to be mindful of tipping the scale too far in regard to favoring God’s Divinity or His Humanity. The extremes lead to heresy.

This article isn't about favoring His Divinity over His Humanity at all.

It's not addressing misconceptions about the nature of God.

Sheesh, Catholics have such a knee jerk reaction to what they perceive as the slightest whiff of *heresy* that the minute they think they see it, their mind shuts down and that's all they can focus on.

However, in our culture, there needs to be a greater focus on His Divine nature. People have indeed lost sight of just who God is, His holiness and righteousness and all the other attributes of God.

God is God and we need to stop thinking or Him and treating Him as s sugar daddy.

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