Posted on 04/17/2014 5:43:38 PM PDT by Faith Presses On
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2280714/posts
The longest existing religions are probably Hinduism and Judaism. Of course, Christianity came from Judaism. And, by the way, you are right it IS a narrow definition. It has to be.
Of course he does. He was an archangel, the Light Bearer.
Imagine his arrogance, envy, hatred for God, the essence of love. For his sins, he is now the Prince of Darkness, of Evil.
What a price he paid: his soul for eternity.
I always wondered if God would, someday, put Satan out of his misery and do away with his existence. God created him; God can eliminate him--POOF.
Sure a lot of stuff we don’t know; ain’t there!
Darn tootin' there is.
I’m sorry it took a little time for me to get back to you. It’s of the highest importance to, though, I believe, considering the topic. From what you’ve written here, it seems to me that you belive in looking at things through your own reason as the final authority. Correct me if I’m wrong. That means using whatever appears true, whatever the source, and giving it the value it seems to have.
As I said, correct me if I’m wrong on that, but your statements on faith and reason suggest that - the ideas of our reason “leading us” to God, and not favoring God’s Divinity or “Humanity.” (Cont’d)
What the Bible says, though, is that we are not to depend on our reason. We are to “trust in the Lord with all our heart and lean not on our own understanding.” We are not to think we can follow “what’s *right* *in our own eyes.” And we’re to remember that there’s a way that seems right to a man, but it leads to death. We are blind. We aren’t to interpret things ourselves, but go to God for interpretation.
Let’s also consider some things about sin, Hell and salvation. We’re responsible for sin. To God, we’re like violent criminals in prison who don’t see the rrors of our ways, and justify ourselves no matter what we’ve done. But if, for example, someone who has murdered someone’s child says, “yes, I was wrong, but I admit so I’ve worked very hard and I’ve more than made up for what I’ve done wrong,” (Cont’d)
and I now deserve an end of punishment and to have a good life, most people just wouldn’t accept that, even if the murderer could show all sorts of good deeds. The point is that in the destruction the murderer did, something irreplaceable was lost. The murderer could receive a good life through mercy and forgiveness, but never because he “worked off” his debt, and it would strike people as an abomination for him to suggest that.
And that is the same reason why we cannot work for salvation in any way. According to God Himself, we deserve Hell eternally, something immeasurably worse than a temporary punishment here. That speaks to God’s view of the seriousness of our sin. (Cont’d)
And what we should also consider about salvation and Hell is that our response to God in which we accept Jesus as our Savior isn’t motivated from “reason,” as though we are comfortably sitting in a classroom considering and debating different academic theories. It comes from self-interest and a fear of Hell, so that we see that we need a Savior. Paul wrote that “knowing the terrors of Hell, we persuade men.” And no one talked more about Hell than Jesus Himself. When someone is in a burning building or drowning, “allowing” oneslef to be rescued is nothing to boast about, especially when it costs the rescuer his life. (Cont’d)
And that’s especially true when it was the sin against a holy God of the person being rescued which put them in the fire or water to begin with.
And then, consider this, too. God is in control. To the extent that we respond to God from ourselves, it’s only with what He gave us in the first place! The Bible says, “why do you boast as if you didn’t receive,” And in Romans 9, Paul explains the way it is. He says God shows mercy on whom He shows mercy, and He hardens whom He hardens. Whom He decides to have respond to Him in faith, He makes sure they will, and whom He hardens in their sins, He hardens. Paul brings up the objection, then, of “why does He still find fault, then, since no one can resist His will?”, but he says who are to ask that of God? From all Paul write, His answer is that we don’t understand everything here, but God can do no wrong so we must trust Him, even on this. (Cont’d)
God is not a man that He should lie. And He is simply infinitely good, powerful, and knowledgeable. He has revealed to us in His Word reality as it truly is, past, present, and future. If we depend on our selves, we’ll go wrong. If we depend on Him as we should, we’ll receive blessing.
Hi,
Thank you for the response. I do appreciate it. Allow me to clarify. As human beings we possess two faculties when it comes to knowing God: faith and reason. These two faculties are not mutually exclusive. Just as our understanding of being comprised of body and soul is not alien to us. In fact, they are harmonious with one another. When reason is oriented towards the good it inevitably leads to God as He is the source of all goodness. However, because of our fallen nature our reason can also lead us to evil.
Some may argue how are we to tell good from evil? This question is not a new one. Pilate asked it of Christ in John 18:38, “What is truth?” As Christians we understand that the Truth that Christ was speaking of is good so truth and goodness are synonymous with each other.
The ability to reason the good is not without precedent. As it was written in Romans 2:14-15 even the Gentiles did not have the law but could follow the law according to what is written on their hearts in conjunction with their conscience. And what is our conscience but that aspect of the human soul that shares in the dignity of the image of God. By tapping into our conscience we can commune with God.
Is it possible for one to reason their way to God? To a certain extent yes. However, it only gets us so far. It is by no means a final authority. After all the reasoning is done an individual is still required to make a leap of Faith. To use an analogy if knowledge were a mountain and at the top resided knowledge of God when astrophysicists, cosmologists, mathematicians, and philosophers reached the top they would find that the theologians were already there.
As for interpretation I agree that we are not to rely solely upon our own reasoning abilities. As a Roman Catholic that is why I believe we have the Church. To guard against the fallibility of human reason which may lead souls to error. Of course that presupposes that one hold the belief that the Church is protected by the Holy Spirit from teaching error in faith and morals. There is that leap of faith. A loving and merciful God would not leave us to the fallibility of our reason.
God’s mercy and forgiveness are in abundance, even for child murderers. As painful as it is we as Christians must assent to that. However there must be repentance on the part of that person to receive absolution. They must be of a sincere and contrite heart. Someone with such a disposition would not say, “I have repented and therefore my sentence for murder should be commuted.” The price must still be paid. This also leads into the question of works and salvation which is another kettle of fish.
As was written in James 2:24 man is justified by works and not by faith alone. We have to ask ourselves exactly what are works? They are the logical extension of our faith in Christ. “Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heave (Matthew 7:21).
Which begs the question, what of those, through no fault of their own have not been given the gift of Faith? For that we refer back to Romans 2:14-15. God’s love and mercy extends to them as well who through their conscience reason to the good and as was stated the good is God.
We all have free will. We are free to accept Jesus Christ or reject Him. As the saying goes, “Liar, lunatic or Savior?” We all have that choice to make. The point is that we as human beings have two components body and soul; faith and reason. All come from God and all are inherently good. We depend on the tools that God gave us to know Him and love Him.
I did have time to carefully read through your post and consider it, but not to reply, so I will as soon as I get the time to again.
I used to participate on many of these threads but became sour and tired and got a little snippy. I prayed God would send the Holy Spirit to ensure that my comments did not turn people away from Him. Evidently the Holy Spirit thought they did because I sensed that discretion was probably the better part of valor and stopped commenting as much.
Consequently I usually just stay silent and shake my head in disbelief at some of the posts and comments.
I ordered and just received a book that was published this year called “The Mississippi Flows Into the Tiber”. It is over a thousand pages or thereabouts and riveting. I need to add that some of the writings are not as eloquent and substantive as other writings. It consists of thumbnail descriptions of notable Americans that have converted to the Catholic Church.
Hi again. After re-reading your reply closely a number of times, the thing that strikes me most about it is that Jesus and the Gosepl are conpletely absent and unaccounted for in it, and they seem to be optional and unnecessary according to it, too. How can that be explained? I would also expect that the Scripture passages I quoted previously beaccounted for somehow as well. I believe in the Bible and that every passage that we know has to do with a subject has to be considered and out of considering them we’ve received the Lord’s instruction on the matter. So we can’t merely pick out Scriptures here or there but must consider all that are relevant.
In your response, too, the focus is all on man, and the belief is that he pursues God (climbing the mountain, as you put it) through His reason. That seems to be the highest form of interpretation for man, his reason, and according to Catholic teaching, it also seems, existence is as the atheist and naturalist see it, with the difference being that “faith” (CONT’D)
is added on, like there’s just a different destination for believers and unbelievers in their conclusions.
What God requires of us, though, is total unconditional surrender. Exactly when can we tell God that He’s wrong? And it’s not like He’s not real. He communicates with us in a number of ways. So above all, we have to settle it in our hearts that any acceptance on our part of disagreement with Him is rebellion, and that we won’t do it. We will embrace that He is always right, and the idea that if we unknowingly disagree, that we want His correction. (CONT’D)
is added on, like there’s just a different destination for believers and unbelievers in their conclusions.
What God requires of us, though, is total unconditional surrender. Exactly when can we tell God that He’s wrong? And it’s not like He’s not real. He communicates with us in a number of ways. So above all, we have to settle it in our hearts that any acceptance on our part of disagreement with Him is rebellion, and that we won’t do it. We will embrace that He is always right, and the idea that if we unknowingly disagree, that we want His correction. (CONT’D - and possibly re-posting since it didn’t seem to)
What also is striking about your reply is that in how it doesn’t account for Jesus and the Gospel, and in how it talks about man, his reason, and works, it again creates a very strong picture of religion. And again, the picture is that science, “the search for knowledge about Nature through man’s reason,” is supreme. The people at the top of the mountain you talk about aren’t simply believers, but theologians (And you identify what they believe, and even if they’re Christian) . And the going to the top of the mountain (works) is religion, not a relationship with God, as He desires. It may in a sense be a cliche, but it’s also true that the religions of the world are about man trying to reach up to God, while true Christinity is about Him reaching down to us.
On some specific things you wrote, you said reason can lead to evil. But the Bible says our reason is evil, and it always leads to evil. God’s Word says our righteousness is as filthy rags before Him. What actually God is most concerned (CONT’D)
about is our hearts, which the Bible says is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. There is plenty else in the Bible, too, that says without God’s direct intervention and instruction, we simply cannot truly know ourselves and our real motivations. We need a Savior in every way. We were made to utterly depend on the Lord, and our reason actually works wonderfully and finds its true fulfillment if we do. But we have to take our proper place first.
On Pilate’s question on truth, again, Christians have the answer even though Pilate didn’t. Jesus said He is the truth. And He told Pilate He came into the world to bear witness to the truth, and that every one of the truth hears His voice. He also told the Samaritan woman that God wants worshipers worshiping Him in Spirit and in truth. (Cont’d)
Post 78 should have been directed to you. I have to stop here for now, but I’ll finish responding soon.
It is a leap pf faith because nowhere in Scripture is it promised that *the church* would be free from error in interpreting Scripture.
While I have no doubt that you and millions of other Catholics believe that the church is protected from error by the Holy Spirit, there is simply no Scriptural support for that.
Additionally, the Catholic church puts too much emphasis on doctrinal adherence.
When peter was asked what people must do to be saved, he responded with ....Acts 2:38-39 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.”
When asked a similar question, Paul responded with.....Acts 16:29-31 And the jailer called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas. Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
Salvation is as simple as believing in, putting your faith in, Jesus.
One doesn't work to earn their salvation. One doesn't work to keep their salvation.
One's doctrine does not have to be word perfect. RICA classes are not necessary.
Those who appeal to their religious works when facing Jesus some day may well hear, *Depart from me, I never knew you.*
The one who got saved in this account was the one who did not appeal to religiousity.
Luke 18:9-14 He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”
The Pharisees had every *i* dotted and every *t* crossed and Jesus called them hypocrites.
He's not looking for men who have perfect doctrine, perfect intellectual assent, but those who have perfect hearts towards Him and the things of God.
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