Hi,
Thank you for the response. I do appreciate it. Allow me to clarify. As human beings we possess two faculties when it comes to knowing God: faith and reason. These two faculties are not mutually exclusive. Just as our understanding of being comprised of body and soul is not alien to us. In fact, they are harmonious with one another. When reason is oriented towards the good it inevitably leads to God as He is the source of all goodness. However, because of our fallen nature our reason can also lead us to evil.
Some may argue how are we to tell good from evil? This question is not a new one. Pilate asked it of Christ in John 18:38, “What is truth?” As Christians we understand that the Truth that Christ was speaking of is good so truth and goodness are synonymous with each other.
The ability to reason the good is not without precedent. As it was written in Romans 2:14-15 even the Gentiles did not have the law but could follow the law according to what is written on their hearts in conjunction with their conscience. And what is our conscience but that aspect of the human soul that shares in the dignity of the image of God. By tapping into our conscience we can commune with God.
Is it possible for one to reason their way to God? To a certain extent yes. However, it only gets us so far. It is by no means a final authority. After all the reasoning is done an individual is still required to make a leap of Faith. To use an analogy if knowledge were a mountain and at the top resided knowledge of God when astrophysicists, cosmologists, mathematicians, and philosophers reached the top they would find that the theologians were already there.
As for interpretation I agree that we are not to rely solely upon our own reasoning abilities. As a Roman Catholic that is why I believe we have the Church. To guard against the fallibility of human reason which may lead souls to error. Of course that presupposes that one hold the belief that the Church is protected by the Holy Spirit from teaching error in faith and morals. There is that leap of faith. A loving and merciful God would not leave us to the fallibility of our reason.
God’s mercy and forgiveness are in abundance, even for child murderers. As painful as it is we as Christians must assent to that. However there must be repentance on the part of that person to receive absolution. They must be of a sincere and contrite heart. Someone with such a disposition would not say, “I have repented and therefore my sentence for murder should be commuted.” The price must still be paid. This also leads into the question of works and salvation which is another kettle of fish.
As was written in James 2:24 man is justified by works and not by faith alone. We have to ask ourselves exactly what are works? They are the logical extension of our faith in Christ. “Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heave (Matthew 7:21).
Which begs the question, what of those, through no fault of their own have not been given the gift of Faith? For that we refer back to Romans 2:14-15. God’s love and mercy extends to them as well who through their conscience reason to the good and as was stated the good is God.
We all have free will. We are free to accept Jesus Christ or reject Him. As the saying goes, “Liar, lunatic or Savior?” We all have that choice to make. The point is that we as human beings have two components body and soul; faith and reason. All come from God and all are inherently good. We depend on the tools that God gave us to know Him and love Him.
I did have time to carefully read through your post and consider it, but not to reply, so I will as soon as I get the time to again.
I used to participate on many of these threads but became sour and tired and got a little snippy. I prayed God would send the Holy Spirit to ensure that my comments did not turn people away from Him. Evidently the Holy Spirit thought they did because I sensed that discretion was probably the better part of valor and stopped commenting as much.
Consequently I usually just stay silent and shake my head in disbelief at some of the posts and comments.
I ordered and just received a book that was published this year called “The Mississippi Flows Into the Tiber”. It is over a thousand pages or thereabouts and riveting. I need to add that some of the writings are not as eloquent and substantive as other writings. It consists of thumbnail descriptions of notable Americans that have converted to the Catholic Church.
Hi again. After re-reading your reply closely a number of times, the thing that strikes me most about it is that Jesus and the Gosepl are conpletely absent and unaccounted for in it, and they seem to be optional and unnecessary according to it, too. How can that be explained? I would also expect that the Scripture passages I quoted previously beaccounted for somehow as well. I believe in the Bible and that every passage that we know has to do with a subject has to be considered and out of considering them we’ve received the Lord’s instruction on the matter. So we can’t merely pick out Scriptures here or there but must consider all that are relevant.
In your response, too, the focus is all on man, and the belief is that he pursues God (climbing the mountain, as you put it) through His reason. That seems to be the highest form of interpretation for man, his reason, and according to Catholic teaching, it also seems, existence is as the atheist and naturalist see it, with the difference being that “faith” (CONT’D)
is added on, like there’s just a different destination for believers and unbelievers in their conclusions.
What God requires of us, though, is total unconditional surrender. Exactly when can we tell God that He’s wrong? And it’s not like He’s not real. He communicates with us in a number of ways. So above all, we have to settle it in our hearts that any acceptance on our part of disagreement with Him is rebellion, and that we won’t do it. We will embrace that He is always right, and the idea that if we unknowingly disagree, that we want His correction. (CONT’D)
is added on, like there’s just a different destination for believers and unbelievers in their conclusions.
What God requires of us, though, is total unconditional surrender. Exactly when can we tell God that He’s wrong? And it’s not like He’s not real. He communicates with us in a number of ways. So above all, we have to settle it in our hearts that any acceptance on our part of disagreement with Him is rebellion, and that we won’t do it. We will embrace that He is always right, and the idea that if we unknowingly disagree, that we want His correction. (CONT’D - and possibly re-posting since it didn’t seem to)
What also is striking about your reply is that in how it doesn’t account for Jesus and the Gospel, and in how it talks about man, his reason, and works, it again creates a very strong picture of religion. And again, the picture is that science, “the search for knowledge about Nature through man’s reason,” is supreme. The people at the top of the mountain you talk about aren’t simply believers, but theologians (And you identify what they believe, and even if they’re Christian) . And the going to the top of the mountain (works) is religion, not a relationship with God, as He desires. It may in a sense be a cliche, but it’s also true that the religions of the world are about man trying to reach up to God, while true Christinity is about Him reaching down to us.
On some specific things you wrote, you said reason can lead to evil. But the Bible says our reason is evil, and it always leads to evil. God’s Word says our righteousness is as filthy rags before Him. What actually God is most concerned (CONT’D)
Post 78 should have been directed to you. I have to stop here for now, but I’ll finish responding soon.
It is a leap pf faith because nowhere in Scripture is it promised that *the church* would be free from error in interpreting Scripture.
While I have no doubt that you and millions of other Catholics believe that the church is protected from error by the Holy Spirit, there is simply no Scriptural support for that.
Additionally, the Catholic church puts too much emphasis on doctrinal adherence.
When peter was asked what people must do to be saved, he responded with ....Acts 2:38-39 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.”
When asked a similar question, Paul responded with.....Acts 16:29-31 And the jailer called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas. Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
Salvation is as simple as believing in, putting your faith in, Jesus.
One doesn't work to earn their salvation. One doesn't work to keep their salvation.
One's doctrine does not have to be word perfect. RICA classes are not necessary.
Those who appeal to their religious works when facing Jesus some day may well hear, *Depart from me, I never knew you.*
The one who got saved in this account was the one who did not appeal to religiousity.
Luke 18:9-14 He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”
The Pharisees had every *i* dotted and every *t* crossed and Jesus called them hypocrites.
He's not looking for men who have perfect doctrine, perfect intellectual assent, but those who have perfect hearts towards Him and the things of God.
On what you wrote about Romans 2:14-15 and the Gentiles, that passage also suggests that God has shown people what’s good so they have no excuse for their sin. Other passages to consider are those that say God will judge those outside the Church, Paul’s address to the Athenians in which he shared the Gospel with them, and Jesus’ giving of the Great Commission to the Church, in which He told His followers to go and make disciples of all nations.
I’m going to leave off here for now.
Hi again. On the church and human fallibility, the protection that the Lord gives us is, above all, individual. His Word says there will be false teachers who lead astray those who don’t receive a love of the truth. Jesus said His sheep hear His voice and won’t follow another.
On the point about child murderers and forgiveness, we have to recognize ourselves as being like such criminals before God when we’re without Christ.
On James and not being saved by faith alone, we must consider both Paul’s and James’ statements, which don’t contradict but are different parts of the same argument. We are saved by faith alone, from which will come works without fail. But we can not be saved by works alone, which come of pride. Hebrews says without faith it is impossible to please God. I know because the Lord has given me faith, I want to live to please Him, so I do dfifferently than if I didn’t know Him. But I’m not doing works to try to get into Heaven. (Cont’d)
On those not “given the gift of faith” as you say “through no fault of their own,” it’s really not for us to say whether or not that can happen. The Bible says God will judge those outside the Church, and also tells us that we only know things in part. As Paul wrote, God is fully in control of things here, He chooses to Him he extends mercy (”I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,” “Jacob have I loved and Esau I have hated”) yet He still finds fault. If we approach things with faith rather than reason, we will find we’ve been given what we need to understand here even though we don’t have all the answers. Do you believe in Hell and that people go there?
What that part of the conversation made me think of is whether or not the Catholic Church does missionary work today in places where people have never heard of Christ and the work involves learning their unknown language so they may hear the Gospel and then translating the Bible into it. (Cont’d)
Then on what you wrote about that we should “depend” on faith and reason, “tolls that God has given us,” what the Bible teaches is that we are to actually depend on Jesus. The other way sounds something akin to deism, while the Bible teaches that the truth about our existence is that God created us for fellowship with Him, as there was in the Garden and as Revelation promises, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with men.” But, sin and sinners simply can’t be in His presence. How can they? How can rebellion and disobedience to God exist around Him? God wants all to come to repentance and be reconciled to Him, but if it doesn’t happen, those people can’t be in His presence. The Bible says Christians are to be “ministers of reconciliation,” who, “knowing the terrors of Hell, persuade men.” Once we are reconciled to God through Jesus, though, it’s as Jesus said: we passed from death to life. (Cont’d)
One more comment on faith and works here. For a time, I believe I was trying to trust in both, and the Lord showed me through an actual Hell experience how that was wrong. The Gospel is “good news,” in that through faith alone in Christ we’re justified before God and saved. What the Lord showed me was that through faith in Jesus, I was no longer in rebellion to Him, hating Him and His ways, and I wanted to do His will out of love for Him. I am seeking to get closer to Him all the time through prayer and letting His Word dwell in me. So, where I fall short, or seem to, I can still “be anxious for nothing,” because I trust, for a variety of reasons, it’s God’s will for my life here in this imperfect place.