Posted on 03/24/2014 2:51:32 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
So says my colleague at The Week, Damon Linker, in an essay predicting that all churches would need to change doctrines to keep up with the modern world, especially the Catholic Church. Refusing to adapt doctrine to modern thought will force an exodus of people from their faiths, Damon writes, especially the Catholic insistence that ordination is limited to men:
By contrast, the majority of Catholics who support women’s ordination are confronted on the altar with the all-male priesthood every time they go to church. At the moment, frustration about the issue is muted because Pope Francis has inspired so much good will among the faithful — and raised such high hopes for reform. That has given the church some breathing room.
But it isn’t going to last. As I’ve argued at length, there is no indication that anything of doctrinal substance is going to change under the new pope — and least of all on the ordination of women, a subject on which Francis has explicitly endorsed Pope John Paul II’s position, which unequivocally dismissed the possibility. Sooner or later — and probably sooner — egalitarian-minded Catholics are going to lose their patience with the hierarchy’s unpersuasive defenses of the status quo.
And they are stunningly unpersuasive. Here is the argument in its entirety: Christ chose 12 men to be his apostles; they in turn chose men to help them spread the word of God; today’s priests and bishops are the direct descendants of these original apostles; therefore, the church doesn’t have the power to ordain women.
The church would be on much firmer ground if the Gospels recorded Christ explicitly stating that he chose men to be his apostles because it is God’s will that only men can serve in that role. But of course he said no such thing. A weaker but at least potentially defensible argument would involve some sort of claim about the nature of women being incompatible with ordination. But the church makes no such argument. Alternatively, the church could appeal to a popularly held gendered vision of God like the one affirmed by the Mormons. But the church doesn’t do that either.
As it is, Catholics are left with: This is the way we do it, because we’ve always done it that way, and we can’t change, so drop it.
First, there seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of the office of Pope. No Pope can change doctrine; the entire structure of the office aims to preserve and defend doctrine. Anyone looking for changes of “doctrinal substance” from any pontificate is doomed to disappointment, including ill-informed Catholics.
Damon claims to represent “the argument in its entirety,” but he’s in error. The argument offered is one of the points in defense of the doctrine of ordination, but it’s not even the main argument. He then demands a Scriptural reference, which hints at a sola scriptura approach, a theological position which of course the Catholic Church rejects anyway. The truth is more complicated, and requires people to understand the nature of the Mass and the priest’s role within it. This could fill books (and has — I’d recommend Coming Soon or The Lamb’s Supper), but I’ll offer a relatively brief explanation.
Priests act in persona Christi capitis during the Mass (CCC pp 875), especially during the Liturgy of the Eucharist. The congregation becomes an earthly part of the eternal celebration of the Wedding Feast of the Lamb, as described in Revelation, in which the Church becomes the Bride of Christ. The priestly authority comes directly from Christ Himself through the apostolic succession of the bishops and their authority to ordain priests for this purpose. It is in this role that priests can effect the transformation of the sacrifice of bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ through the unity of the Holy Spirit with Christ and God the Father, as seen in Revelation, and offer it to the faithful as a sacrament of union with Christ and that eternal celebration. Acting in persona Christi capitis, the priest acts in place of Christ the bridegroom in that moment in time here in the world (CCC pp 1348). Also, the priest’s role in the Mass occurs through the power of Christ the bridegroom (CCC 1548). This is how the two will become one flesh, as in sacramental marriage in this world. If the congregation is the bride, the priest as groom must be male to act in persona Christi capitis, according to the teachings of the Catholic Church.
None of this is particularly secret, by the way. As the references show, the Catholic Church teaches all of this quite openly. The belief in the actual presence of Christ in the Eucharist and the Liturgy of the Eucharist as a connection to the one sacrifice at the eternal wedding feast forms the substantial argument for ordaining only men to the priesthood. (It’s worth noting that the recently restored order of the diaconate is currently only open to men, but the Church is discerning on that practice, since deacons cannot serve in the place of priests during the Liturgy of the Eucharist anyway.) However, it’s at least a fair point to admit that many Catholics never hear this teaching, for reasons of poor catechism at home or in churches and schools.
Now, people are free to believe this or not, but the basis for the doctrine isn’t simply that Jesus only chose men to be His apostles. Furthermore, the Church’s role isn’t to change with the times anyway. It’s to defend what it teaches as revealed truth, and to spread the truth rather than take polls. That may indeed produce an impulse for congregants to leave, but that may be a symptom of poor catechesis rather than a refusal to change doctrine to suit the modern temperament. If an exodus occurs, that would be the cause, not a refusal to rewrite doctrine.
The poet Alexander Pope once wrote that “a little knowledge is a dangerous thing,” warning that “shallow draughts intoxicate the brain, and drinking largely sobers us again.” This would seem to be an apt demonstration of that axiom.
According to David E. Campbell and Robert D. Putnam in American Grace: How Religion Divides and Unites Us, the Roman Catholic Church is "hemorrhaging members." The Pew Forum's 2007 "U.S. Religious Landscape Survey" found that Catholics have experienced the greatest net loss of any American religious tradition. Although Latinos are now the church's most faithful and orthodox members, church leaders have been worried about their exodus for over a decade. The numbers show a more diverse—and if immigration slows, a smaller—Roman Catholic Church in the coming years. Faithful immigrant Catholics have enabled the Catholic Church to keep a steady 25 percent of the American population, but as immigrants come in, young people and second-generation Latinos trickle out.
-- from the thread Mass exodus
No.
Will ordination doctrine drive a “mass exodus of the faithful” from the Catholic Church? I’m quite certain that it would. Will World Vision’s embrace of “Gay Christians” cause many of the faithful to place their donations elsewhere? We may soon find out.
The Orthodox Church has watered down its teachings in areas of divorce and contraception to name a few.
A brief overview In all 2,000 years of Church history, only two papal ex cathedra statements have been made. These ex cathedra statements come directly from God — a pope is infallible when he makes an ex cathedra statement. The first of these statements was made in 1854 when Pope Pius IX confirmed the Immaculate Conception. The other ex cathedra statement was made in 1950; Pope Pius XII defined the dogma of the Assumption of Mary, body and soul, into heaven.
So how do we know when the pope is speaking ex cathedra if these aren't supported in the Bible?
If I'm wrong please correct me.
True, sola scriptura isn't taught in the Bible, but upon what else would you base your faith?
You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. (2 Tim. 3:14–17). That's as solid a foundation as you're gonna get.
Jesus quoted scripture extensively and the apostles did as well. They did not cite man-made traditions. In fact, they worked hard to remove man-made traditions.
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
Man-made "tradition" is inferior, without Biblical reference and in many cases, an outright fabrication of man, and in some cases idol worship....eg: infallibility of the Pope, immaculate conception, indulgences, papal authority, perpetual virginity of Mary, Assumption of Mary...I could go on, but you get the idea.
I strongly suggest people do some research on the "infallibility" of the pope to see how this "doctrine" has evolved over time. Very interesting.
Perfectly stated. Warmed the cockles of my heart.
And another thing, I’ve been Catholic my whole life and most of my friends are at least CINOs. I’ve never heard one Catholic complain about all male priests, the Church’s stance on gay marriage, or any of the other issues typically raised by Church liberals.
here here
bravo bravo
couldn’t have said it better myself.
AMDG
He did not establish new doctrine belief in Mary - that doctrine was held from I believe the first council in 325 AD.
He just made it dogma so if you didn’t accept it you were excommunicated.
Big difference he invented nothing, just reinforced it.
AMDG
ah Alex,
found another thread so you could bash Catholics with your anti-Catholic bigotry.
Wrong again Alex!
The following real statistics puts the lie to your hogwash.
UNITED STATES
DATA OVER TIME: .1965 .1975 .1985 .1995 .2000 .2005 .2013
Catholic population 45.6m 48.7m 52.3m 57.4m 59.9m 64.8m 66.8m
(The Official Catholic Directory)
Catholic population 48.5m 54.5m 59.5m 65.7m 71.7m 74.0m 78.2m
(self-identified, survey-based)
WORLD
DATA OVER TIME: .1970 ..1975 ..1985 ..1995 ...2000 ...2005 ....2013
Catholic population 653.6m 709.6m 852.0m 989.4m 1.045b 1.115b 1.196b
SOURCE: CARA Georgetown
http://cara.georgetown.edu/caraservices/requestedchurchstats.html
CARA gets many inquiries from Church agencies and the media about the numbers for vocations, seminary enrollments, priests and vowed religious, parishes, Mass attendance, schools and the Catholic population. Below are some comparative statistics from 1965. Generally, these data reflect the situation at the beginning of the calendar year listed. The sources for this information include The Official Catholic Directory (OCD), the Vatican’s Annuarium Statisticum Ecclesiae (ASE), and other CARA research and databases. All data are cross checked as much as possible. For the U.S, the numbers reported here include only figures for those 195 dioceses or eparchies who belong to the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops. This includes the 50 states, the District of Columbia, the U.S. Virgin Islands, and all U.S. military personnel stationed overseas. This page also includes links to other areas of the CARA website that provide answers to frequently asked questions.
For more information about CARA research and statistics, including our national and parish surveys, demographic studies, trend analyses and projections, and focus groups visit CARA Services. For more information about CARA’s beginings read the following Review of Religious Research article from 1967 by Francis X. Gannon entitled, “Bridging the Research Gap: CARA, Response to Vatican II.”
AMDG
For the Greater Glory of God
Why come to this topic to post this? Are you simply looking for another boring internet fight about this topic? You can use google and find the catholic answers to your questions instead of trying derail the topic.
However, if you wish to discuss this, feel free to send me a private message.
Christ is the bridegroom of His Church.
She is His Bride.
Women cannot be priests.
Hate to break it to all the ladies out there(and I am one)but Jesus was a Man and His priests are men. Get over it.
Men will not ever be inferior. Women may bear children, but only men can write their names in the snow neatly.
lol
which reminds me of the story of Dick Nixon who discovered the words “I hate Dick” written in the snow outside the oval office.
well he called in his guys at the CIA and told them he wanted to get to the bottom of who id it.
after a week he call the head of the CIA in and told him to quit stalling and tell him who was responsible.
after some heming and hawing he said he had good new and bad news.
Well he said the good news was they had a urinalysis performed and it was Henry Kissinger’s urine...
The bad news was it was his wife Pat’s handwriting.
Sorry it’s the only yellow snow joke I know.
>> This Catholic hopes there will indeed be an exodus of disgruntled liberals from the Church, just so they can take their `priestesses’, guitars, tambourines, insipid music, gay `inclusiveness’ and the `sign of peace’ with them.
Gee, I dunnow - it’s all worked so well in the Episcopal church. /s
In January, I walked out of the annual “Kirkin’ of the Tartans” service. Last Sunday, I was out of town - my wife and grandson walked out. Same reason: The “Bongo Boys” were providing the music. We’re lying in wait for the priest to say something to us...
Another poster disagreed with what I posted and I replied back with a more in depth answer.
I guess I was mistaken that on the Religion forum we would have a discussion on the topic. I guess now that only replies that affirm and support the Catholic Church are acceptable?
If ordaining women was the key to church’s maintaining their membership then by that reasoning, the Episcopagan(oops!) Episcopal Church USA ought to be overflowing with growth and membership. Isn’t happening, is it.
LOL
In the Religion forum, on a thread titled Will ordination doctrine drive a “mass exodus of the faithful” from the Catholic Church?, ealgeone wrote:
Two points:
1) I thought the pope could speak ex cathedra and that established new doctrine belief as he did regarding Mary
2)Actually the answer can be found sola scriptura....as all answers to these type of questions.
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