Was "Babylon The Great" a Symbolic Name for Jerusalem?

That is a very important statement to keep in mind when considering the following passages: and later in the same chapter of Luke, Jesus added:

"…I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute: That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation." (Luke 11:47-51 KJV)

That is pretty clear. Jerusalem is responsible for the blood of all the prophets, and at least some of the apostles. There is more in Matthew:

"Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in yoursynagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation." (Mat 23:34-36 KJV)

So, Jerusalem was not only responsible for the blood of all the prophets (and some apostles;) but for all the righteous blood shed upon the earth. And vengeance for that blood was required of the generation that Jesus was speaking to.

We all know that is exactly what happened within that generation: the Roman armies completely destroyed Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD, fulfilling this prophecy by Jesus:

"And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down." (Mat 24:1-2 KJV)

But how do those verses compare to those on Babylon the Great found in the Revelation?

In the Revelation, Babylon the Great is also called the great whore, the mother of harlots, the great city, and the woman. In the context of blood responsibility, John mentions this:

"And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration." (Rev 17:6, KJV)

The first martyr of Jesus was Stephen, if I recall correctly; and there were many more. The next chapter reveals additional facts:

"And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth." (Rev 18:24, KJV)

But, according to Jesus, Jerusalem is supposed to be responsible for the blood of all the prophets; and Jerusalem is responsible for all the righteous blood? Yet, in the following verse we see that God avenged the blood of the apostles and prophets on Babylon the Great.

“Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.” (Rev 18:20, KJV)

1. Jerusalem killed many of the apostles, yet their blood was avenged on Babylon the Great

2. Jerusalem is responsible for the blood of all the prophets, yet their blood was avenged on Babylon the Great.

3. Jerusalem was responsible for the blood of all the righteous, yet Babylon the Great was responsible for "all that were slain on the earth."

There are many other references in the Revelation that tie Babylon the Great to old Jerusalem. This is one of many:

"And their dead bodies [the two witnesses] shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified." (Rev 11:8 KJV)

It seem our Lord Jesus Christ was killed in both Babylon the Great and Jerusalem. It is difficult to imagine Babylon the Great being any other city than Jerusalem.

>>>Well, let me help ya out there.<<<

You can’t "help me out" by quoting them, “Saint” Cynical! They are premillennialists! They have already proven they don’t understand either the Olivet Discourse, or the Revelation.

And why exactly are you quoting them? These new-age "Presbyterians" reject your new-age doctrine, as well. Their doctrine is only a half-step away from dispensationalism, yet they reject it? The only way I can explain that is they have adopted some of the dispensational "rules," such as, "my way or the highway." LOL!

BTW, your pretense that my ideology should be similar to theirs because they claim to be Presbyterians is just plain bizarre. They are new-age. I am closer to the conservative reformed Presbyterian, like Otis and Gentry.

The self-proclaimed "minister," wrote:

>>>Very little teaching on the second coming remains after preterism has consumed most of the New Testament prophecies.<<<

What he is really saying is, "If this gets around that means no more doom and gloom scare tactics, and no more scare tactics means no more book sales!"

>>>Although Gentry refers to Russell as an advocate of “radical preterism,” he still praises The Parousia as “masterfully written,” even though Paul calls his doctrine heresy! Gentry, He Shall Have Dominion, a Post-millennial Eschatology, pg 270-271.<<<

I agree with Gentry on this one. John Stuart Russell's "Parousia" is masterfully written; though, like Gentry I believe his interpretation of Rev 20 is incorrect. I would still recommend everyone read it, like I recommend reading Matthew Henry's commentaries. I don't have to agree with someone 100% to find an occasionally gem hidden in their work(s.)

You will not find that kind of scholarship by a dispensational author: they have to twist and contort scriptural time contexts too much to ever write objectively and masterfully.

>>> As a minister of Christ, I must write what I believe to be true with regard to this subject. I do so, but with no joy in my heart, because I know that I am criticizing many that I love in the Lord. Yet, I feel it is my duty to call attention to what I believe to be error in the teaching of the partial preterism.<<<

My duty? Such arrogance! As a premillennialist, he has already proven he can't interpret the scripture objectively. Premillennialists, like the dispensationalist, must spiritualize all time contexts for their schemes to work. Ask them to interpret the following verse and watch them run for cover:

"For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." (Mat 16:27-28 KJV)

It does not get any clearer than that; but many will figure out a way to explain it away and deny the plain and clear words of Christ.

>>>The preterists do not look for Christ’s second advent any time soon. Chilton thinks it may be 1000’s of years away. Are not he and his fellow preterist’s slumbering and sleeping? Do they have their lamps trimmed?<<<

What he is really saying, "If it is a thousand years away, how am I going to sell my books?"

Another thing he will not tell you is that Jesus told his disciples to "watch!" Why would Jesus tell them to "watch" if they were going to be in a grave for thousands of years? Can you not see how much violence has been done to the scriptures by the time-spiritualizers?

BTW, I personally hope Christ comes soon. Satan, since being loosed out of prison, has done tremendous damage to the Church and western cultures.

Philip

>> One day, “Saint Cynical,” you must explain to us “non-literalists” how these verses in Ezekiel can be taken literally:<<

Sure, if your head wasn’t stuck in Preterism you may see it also. I doubt you will as you have been blinded.

Ezekiel 34: 22 Therefore will I save my flock, and they shall no more be a prey; and I will judge between cattle and cattle. 23 And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd. 24 And I the Lord will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the Lord have spoken it. 25 And I will make with them a covenant of peace, and will cause the evil beasts to cease out of the land: and they shall dwell safely in the wilderness, and sleep in the woods. 26 And I will make them and the places round about my hill a blessing; and I will cause the shower to come down in his season; there shall be showers of blessing. 27 And the tree of the field shall yield her fruit, and the earth shall yield her increase, and they shall be safe in their land, and shall know that I am the Lord, when I have broken the bands of their yoke, and delivered them out of the hand of those that served themselves of them. 28 And they shall no more be a prey to the heathen, neither shall the beast of the land devour them; but they shall dwell safely, and none shall make them afraid. 29 And I will raise up for them a plant of renown, and they shall be no more consumed with hunger in the land, neither bear the shame of the heathen any more. 30 Thus shall they know that I the Lord their God am with them, and that they, even the house of Israel, are my people, saith the Lord God. 31 And ye my flock, the flock of my pasture, are men, and I am your God, saith the Lord God.

God “literally” told us who He was talking about and He is “literally” currently re-gathering Israel to the land He gave them just as He promised He would.

Hosea 3:4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim: 5 Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the Lord their God, and David their king; and shall fear the Lord and his goodness in the latter days.

The nation of Israel has been without a king, prince, and without sacrifice for “many days”. God is now re-gathering them in the land He gave them and will finish what He promised. Stay tuned. Your “it’s all past” is falling apart as Israel is being set back in their land.

Ezekiel 48 – all that land will once again belong to the nation of Israel.

BTW I am under no obligation to respond you your every error and carnal blathering.

Cynical's comments are in Blue; my bold:

>>>Ezekiel 34: 22 Therefore will I save my flock, and they shall no more be a prey; and I will judge between cattle and cattle. 23 And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd. 24 And I the Lord will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the Lord have spoken it.<<<

>>>God “literally” told us who He was talking about and He is “literally” currently re-gathering Israel to the land He gave them just as He promised He would.<<<

>>>Hosea 3:4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim: 5 Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the Lord their God, and David their king; and shall fear the Lord and his goodness in the latter days.<<<

>>>The nation of Israel has been without a king, prince, and without sacrifice for “many days”. God is now re-gathering them in the land He gave them and will finish what He promised. Stay tuned. Your “it’s all past” is falling apart as Israel is being set back in their land.<<<

And David literally will be their King? Not Jesus?

If David will be their King, are dispensationalists spiritualizing the scripture by claiming Jesus will be the earthly King? Or is the mention of David as king implying a spiritual king?

How does that work?

>>>Ezekiel 48 – all that land will once again belong to the nation of Israel.<<<

Let's check it out. Ezekiel 48 lists the 12 tribes, by verse, as follows:

1 … a portion for Dan.
2 … a portion for Asher.
3 … a portion for Naphtali.
4 … a portion for Manasseh.
5 … a portion for Ephraim.
6 … a portion for Reuben.
7 … a portion for Judah.
23 …Benjamin shall have a portion.
24 …Simeon shall have a portion.
25 … Issachar a portion.
26 … Zebulun a portion.
27 … Gad a portion.

In Revelation 7:5-8, the tribes listed are: Reuben, Gad, Juda, Aser, Nephthalim, Manasses, Levi, Simeon, Issachar, Zabulon, Joseph, and Benjamin.

Two of those tribes listed in Ezekiel as receiving land portions, Dan and Ephraim, do not match the tribes listed in the Revelation of Jesus Christ; and Joseph from the Revelation is not mentioned in Ezekiel.

How do you explain these discrepancies, Cynical? Was Ezekiel writing about the restoration of land to Israel after their return from Babylon, rather than 2500 years in the future as dispensationalists claim?

Philip

>>How do you explain these discrepancies, Cynical?<<

It’s rather easy really. Just some study could have told you that. Whenever the twelve tribes are listed with names as Patriarchs of the tribe there is always twelve. But the names are not always the same. There is a reason for that. In Ezekiel 48 the land is being allocated and Levi is left off the list. That’s because Levi was the father of the Priestly tribe and they didn’t get land allotted to them so are left off the list when land is being discussed. On the other hand Levi is credited in Revelation since it’s not land being discussed but who it is that is protected through the last 3 ½ years of the Tribulation. Dan and Ephraim are left off getting credit in Revelation because they were the instigators of Idolatry as seen in 1 Kings 12. In every case of a list there is always twelve and always the descendents of Jacob.

Bottom line is that in Revelation Joseph gets credit for the tribe of Ephraim Dan is not given credit but Levi is. God knows who is who.

>>Was Ezekiel writing about the restoration of land to Israel after their return from Babylon, rather than 2500 years in the future as dispensationalists claim?<<

No, he was not. When is Israel’s history have they ever “dwelt safely” in the land since the days of Solomon?

Ezekiel 34: 28 And they shall no more be a prey to the heathen, neither shall the beast of the land devour them; but they shall dwell safely, and none shall make them afraid. 29 And I will raise up for them a plant of renown, and they shall be no more consumed with hunger in the land, neither bear the shame of the heathen any more. 30 Thus shall they know that I the Lord their God am with them, and that they, even the house of Israel, are my people, saith the Lord God.

Cynical's words and scriptural posts are in blue:

I Wrote: >>>How do you explain these discrepancies, Cynical?<<<

Cynical Wrote: >>>It’s rather easy really. Just some study could have told you that. Whenever the twelve tribes are listed with names as Patriarchs of the tribe there is always twelve. But the names are not always the same. There is a reason for that. In Ezekiel 48 the land is being allocated and Levi is left off the list. That’s because Levi was the father of the Priestly tribe and they didn’t get land allotted to them so are left off the list when land is being discussed. On the other hand Levi is credited in Revelation since it’s not land being discussed but who it is that is protected through the last 3 ½ years of the Tribulation. <<<

None for the Levites? This passage in Ezekiel 48 seems to indicate the Levites do get a portion, as do the sons of Zadok. This is a very informative passage:

"And by the border of Judah, from the east side unto the west side, shall be the offering which ye shall offer of five and twenty thousand reeds in breadth, and in length as one of the other parts, from the east side unto the west side: and the sanctuary shall be in the midst of it. The oblation that ye shall offer unto the Lord shall be of five and twenty thousand in length, and of ten thousand in breadth. And for them, even for the priests, shall be this holy oblation; toward the north five and twenty thousand in length, and toward the west ten thousand in breadth, and toward the east ten thousand in breadth, and toward the south five and twenty thousand in length: and the sanctuary of the Lord shall be in the midst thereof. It shall be for the priests that are sanctified of the sons of Zadok; which have kept my charge, which went not astray when the children of Israel went astray, as the Levites went astray. And this oblation of the land that is offered shall be unto them a thing most holy by the border of the Levites. And over against the border of the priests the Levites shall have five and twenty thousand in length, and ten thousand in breadth: all the length shall be five and twenty thousand, and the breadth ten thousand. And they shall not sell of it, neither exchange, nor alienate the firstfruits of the land: for it is holy unto the Lord." (Eze 48:8-14 KJV)

>>>Dan and Ephraim are left off getting credit in Revelation because they were the instigators of Idolatry as seen in 1 Kings 12.<<<

You are spiritualizing the scriptures. Where does it say that Dan and Ephraim are left off in the Revelation for any reason? Where is Dan even mentioned in the New Testament? Not once is it mentioned!

>>>In every case of a list there is always twelve and always the descendents of Jacob.<<<

Except when it is 13 or 14, as is the case in Ezekiel, when Levi and the sons of Zadok are included.

>>>Bottom line is that in Revelation Joseph gets credit for the tribe of Ephraim Dan is not given credit but Levi is. God knows who is who.<<<

Bottom line is you are making all this up to cover the fact that literalism failed in these instances!

>>Was Ezekiel writing about the restoration of land to Israel after their return from Babylon, rather than 2500 years in the future as dispensationalists claim?<<

>>>No, he was not. When is Israel’s history have they ever “dwelt safely” in the land since the days of Solomon?<<<

Under Cyrus?

"Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant; and Israel, whom I have chosen: Thus saith the Lord that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, which will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen. For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring: And they shall spring up as among the grass, as willows by the water courses." (Isa 44:1-4 KJV)

"Remember these, O Jacob and Israel; for thou art my servant: I have formed thee; thou art my servant: O Israel, thou shalt not be forgotten of me. I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee. Sing, O ye heavens; for the Lord hath done it: shout, ye lower parts of the earth: break forth into singing, ye mountains, O forest, and every tree therein: for the Lord hath redeemed Jacob, and glorified himself in Israel. Thus saith the Lord, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself; That frustrateth the tokens of the liars, and maketh diviners mad; that turneth wise men backward, and maketh their knowledge foolish; That confirmeth the word of his servant, and performeth the counsel of his messengers; that saith to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be inhabited; and to the cities of Judah, Ye shall be built, and I will raise up the decayed places thereof: That saith to the deep, Be dry, and I will dry up thy rivers: That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid." (Isa 44:21-28 KJV)

You can read more about Cyrus and the rebuilding of Jerusalem and the temple in Ezra. This is an excerpt:

"Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the Lord stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying, Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The Lord God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth; and he hath charged me to build him an house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Who is there among you of all his people? his God be with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem, which is in Judah, and build the house of the Lord God of Israel, (he is the God,) which is in Jerusalem. And whosoever remaineth in any place where he sojourneth, let the men of his place help him with silver, and with gold, and with goods, and with beasts, beside the freewill offering for the house of God that is in Jerusalem." (Ezra 1:1-4 KJV)

>>>Ezekiel 34: 28 And they shall no more be a prey to the heathen, neither shall the beast of the land devour them; but they shall dwell safely, and none shall make them afraid. 29 And I will raise up for them a plant of renown, and they shall be no more consumed with hunger in the land, neither bear the shame of the heathen any more. 30 Thus shall they know that I the Lord their God am with them, and that they, even the house of Israel, are my people, saith the Lord God.<<<

What about the verses just before those, Cynical?

"Therefore will I save my flock, and they shall no more be a prey; and I will judge between cattle and cattle. And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd. And I the Lord will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the Lord have spoken it." (Eze 34:22-24 KJV)

Is this not referring (spiritually) to Cyrus? It cannot be David under either circumstance: either after the return from Babylon, or during the so-called "millennial kingdom," unless is spiritualized.

The Lord did call Cyrus his shepherd, and that he would build the temple: the 2nd temple after the Babylonian captivity:

"That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid." (Isa 44:28 KJV)

It appears you have been spiritualizing the scriptures, Cynical Bear.

Philip

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