Was "Babylon The Great" a Symbolic Name for Jerusalem?

That is a very important statement to keep in mind when considering the following passages: and later in the same chapter of Luke, Jesus added:

"…I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute: That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation." (Luke 11:47-51 KJV)

That is pretty clear. Jerusalem is responsible for the blood of all the prophets, and at least some of the apostles. There is more in Matthew:

"Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in yoursynagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation." (Mat 23:34-36 KJV)

So, Jerusalem was not only responsible for the blood of all the prophets (and some apostles;) but for all the righteous blood shed upon the earth. And vengeance for that blood was required of the generation that Jesus was speaking to.

We all know that is exactly what happened within that generation: the Roman armies completely destroyed Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD, fulfilling this prophecy by Jesus:

"And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down." (Mat 24:1-2 KJV)

But how do those verses compare to those on Babylon the Great found in the Revelation?

In the Revelation, Babylon the Great is also called the great whore, the mother of harlots, the great city, and the woman. In the context of blood responsibility, John mentions this:

"And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration." (Rev 17:6, KJV)

The first martyr of Jesus was Stephen, if I recall correctly; and there were many more. The next chapter reveals additional facts:

"And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth." (Rev 18:24, KJV)

But, according to Jesus, Jerusalem is supposed to be responsible for the blood of all the prophets; and Jerusalem is responsible for all the righteous blood? Yet, in the following verse we see that God avenged the blood of the apostles and prophets on Babylon the Great.

“Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.” (Rev 18:20, KJV)

1. Jerusalem killed many of the apostles, yet their blood was avenged on Babylon the Great

2. Jerusalem is responsible for the blood of all the prophets, yet their blood was avenged on Babylon the Great.

3. Jerusalem was responsible for the blood of all the righteous, yet Babylon the Great was responsible for "all that were slain on the earth."

There are many other references in the Revelation that tie Babylon the Great to old Jerusalem. This is one of many:

"And their dead bodies [the two witnesses] shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified." (Rev 11:8 KJV)

It seem our Lord Jesus Christ was killed in both Babylon the Great and Jerusalem. It is difficult to imagine Babylon the Great being any other city than Jerusalem.

>>>Nothing Phil has posted shows the slightest bit of evidence of having been thought out. This is just amusement.<<<

Talk about amusement, look at the bizarre stuff the Roodies believe, and I am only quoting from this thread:

1. Babylon is the Biblical name of Satan’s global system, that he has nurtured since Cain was cast out to the wilderness. #25

Comments: invented out of thin air

2. No, [Babylon the Great] is more than that. It is Satan’s web of control of all Earthly endeavor, secular, and ecclesiastical. #28

Comments: invented out of thin air

3. Considering that Peter specifically calls out the Hebrew settlements of the area that was then known as Babylon as the intended recipients of the epistle, I suspect that was where he was when he wrote it. #29

Comments: there is no evidence for this from biblical verses, historical references, visions from God, …, none. Well, one of the Roodies may have had a vision from "God".

4. The description of Babylon in The Revelation is easily recognized as the Vatican, and the British royal family. #30

Comments: that is cabbage-head material.

5. It definitely is a real queen. [Babylon the Great] #36

Comments: not in the King James Version, nor in the American Standard, Darby Bible, DRA 1899, English Standard, Holman, New American, New International, Revised Standard, New World Translation, Orthodox Jewish Bible, World English, nor Young's Literal Translation. What kind of bible do the Roodies use?

6. Rome slaughtered ALL of the apostles. #37

Comments: This is just too easy to prove as silly. He must have mistyped or misstated this one. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

7. If you look up the word used for “strangers” in the Greek text, you will see that he was speaking to his Hebrew cousins is the area below the Black sea. #40

Comments: Jews from some of those cities were in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost. There is no evidence Peter travelled anywhere beyond Antioch.

8. “Marcus” was John Mark, the author of the second gospel. #85

Comments: There is no evidence that is Peter's son, nor that Peter's son wrote the Gospel.

9. Peter was known to have traveled extensively in the area known as Babylon to the people of Jerusalem. #85

Comments: Same answer as 7. There is no evidence of this.

Overall Comment: I gotta get me one of those Roodie Bibles. They must be a laugh a minute.

Philip

Cynical Bear wrote:

Matt 4:15 γῆ Matt 2:21 γῆν

>>>___Do those look like the same words to you?___<<<

Since you are not going to explain the differences to the readers, despite my asking, I will give it a try. I had to ponder this for a while to make my point, but I believe I found a method that will work.

In general, the words are essentially the same word with slight changes to allow for usage variances, some of the time. LOL! I'm not kidding about "some of the time." Well, I am not really sure about some of the time. Scholars have been arguing over this for centuries. Anyway, here goes:

This is the first word, γῆ

Matt 2:6 "Bethlehem, [in] the land (γῆ) of Juda"
Matt 4:15 "The land (γῆ) of Zabulon"
Matt 5:18 "heaven and earth (γῆ) pass"
Mat 9:31 "all that country (γῆ)"
Mat 11:24 "more tolerable for the land (γῆ) of Sodom"
Mat 24:35 "Heaven and earth (γῆ) shall pass away, but"
Luk 8:15 "that on the good ground (γῆ) are they"
Acts 7:33 "is holy ground (γῆ)."
Acts 13:19 "in the land of Chanaan (γῆ),"
1Cor 10:28 "for the earth (γῆ) [is] the Lord's"
Jam 5:18 "rain, and the earth (γῆ) brought forth her"
2Pet 3:10 "with fervent heat, the earth (γῆ) also"
Rev 13:3 "and all the world (γῆ) wondered after"
Rev 14:16 "and the earth (γῆ) was reaped.
Rev 21:1 "the first earth (γῆ) were passed away;"

This is the second word, γῆν

Mat 2:21 "came into the land (γῆν) of Israel."
Mat 5:5 "they shall inherit the earth (γῆν)."
Mat 9:26 "all that land (γῆν)."
Mat 10:29 "fall on the ground (γῆν) without your"
Mat 15:35 "to sit down on the ground (γῆν)."
Luk 16:17 "for heaven and earth (γῆν) to pass, than"
John 3:22 "disciples into the land (γῆν) of Judaea; and"
Acts 4:24 "heaven, and earth (γῆν), and the sea,"
Rom 10:18 "into all the earth (γῆν), and their"
Heb 1:10 " hast laid the foundation of the earth (γῆν)"
Heb 11:9 "in the land of promise (γῆν),"
Heb 12:26 "then shook the earth (γῆν): but now"
2 Pet 3:13 "and a new earth (γῆν), wherein dwelleth"
Rev 5:6 "into all the earth (γῆν)."
Rev 12:12 "woe to the inhabiters of the earth (γῆν) and"
Rev 14:7 "heaven, and earth (γῆν), and the sea"
Rev 17:2 "the inhabitants of the earth (γῆν) have been made drunk"
Rev 21:1 "a new heaven and a new earth (γῆν): for the first"

In the original post on the subject, Revelation 18:11 was the subject. It was translated from another of the three variations, γῆς. We will look at verses from the Revelation that use all three variations, in order:

Rev 18:1 and the earth (γῆ) was lightened
Rev 17:2 the inhabitants of the earth (γῆν) have been made drunk
Rev 18:11 the merchants of the earth (γῆς) shall weep

These are some other uses of γῆς

Mark 6:47 "alone on the land (γῆς)."
Mark 8:6 "to sit down on the ground (γῆς): and he took"
Luk 21:35 "the face of the whole earth (γῆς)."
Acts 7:3 "out of thy country (γῆς), and from"
Acts 17:24 "of heaven and earth (γῆς), dwelleth not"
Rev 1:7 "kindreds of the earth (γῆς) shall wail"
Rev 6:4 "peace from the earth (γῆς), and that"
Rev 18:3 "the merchants of the earth (γῆς) are waxed rich"

You see any usable differences? Maybe that is why Strong's and Young's lumps them all under one word, γῆ.

By the way, you can find these variations in the Englishman's Concordance.

Philip

>>You see any usable differences?<<

Here’s a hint for you.

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Has knowledge been increased in the last 70 years?

Daniel 12: 8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

God caused people to not understand at times didn’t He?

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Many of the words of scripture have been hidden from people “till the time of the end”. The meaning of the “world”, “the whole earth”, and much of prophecy were not understood fully “till the time of the end”.

Now take into consideration how anyone could fully understand not only the meaning of some words but prophecy in general before an event in history that could not possibly be expected in the carnal logic.

Ezekiel 34:13 And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country.

Which writers understood prior to 1948 that Israel would again be a nation in the same land as God gave them originally after nearly 2000 years? Now look at the nations that are against Israel today. Compare that with the old Roman Empire region and much of the old understanding of prophecy and exegesis gets turned on its head.

The same holds true for your belief that AD70 was the fulfillment of much of prophecy. The re-gathering of Israel as a nation is not a coincidence.

>>>Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.<<<

>>>Has knowledge been increased in the last 70 years?<<<

More meaningless misdirection. What does any of this sleight-of-hand have to do with your pretense that those minor Greek word variations were of earth-shaking importance? None.

But these are good things to bring to light. Did knowledge increase during the 500-600 years from the time Daniel wrote the book until the time of Christ? I imagine so.

>>>Daniel 12: 8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.<<<

>>>God caused people to not understand at times didn’t He?<<<

More meaningless misdirection. Did Jesus tell John NOT to seal the book of prophecy? Yes. Daniel sealed it; and Christ unsealed it, beginning in Revelation 6, shortly after his resurrection.

>>>Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.<<<

>>>>Many of the words of scripture have been hidden from people “till the time of the end”. The meaning of the “world”, “the whole earth”, and much of prophecy were not understood fully “till the time of the end”.<<<

More meaningless misdirection. No one knows what that means. No one. That is why dispensationalists use verses like that, because no one can prove them wrong (or right.) It is that kind of obfuscation that has led to a different "Antichrist" every week, and a zillion dollar "Christian" book industry based on scaring the daylights out of people: all by dispensational false prophets.

We do know that Jesus was only sent to gather the lost sheep of the house of Israel; and he sent his disciples to the same people. Only a remnant was saved, and they became the "144,000" of all the tribes sealed as servants of God and of the Lamb. That is found in Revelation 7 and 14.

And don't believe any of the dispensational spin relating to the the Jews rejecting Christ as their king. Christ rejected them, as prophesied in Jeremiah; and he rejected an earthly kingdom early in his ministry. This is the prophecy of Jeremiah:

"But thou shalt say unto them, This is a nation that obeyeth not the voice of the Lord their God, nor receiveth correction: truth is perished, and is cut off from their mouth. Cut off thine hair, O Jerusalem, and cast it away, and take up a lamentation on high places; for the Lord hath rejected and forsaken the generation of his wrath. For the children of Judah have done evil in my sight, saith the Lord: they have set their abominations in the house which is called by my name, to pollute it. And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart. Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that it shall no more be called Tophet, nor the valley of the son of Hinnom, but the valley of slaughter: for they shall bury in Tophet, till there be no place. And the carcases of this people shall be meat for the fowls of the heaven, and for the beasts of the earth; and none shall fray them away. Then will I cause to cease from the cities of Judah, and from the streets of Jerusalem, the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride: for the land shall be desolate." (Jer 7:28-34 KJV)

Notice how that passage correlates to the Great Whore, Babylon the Great of the Revelation.

This is Christ's rejection of an earthly kingdom:

"Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve." (Mat 4:8-10 KJV)

Dispensational doctrine is all made up out of thin air.

>>>Now take into consideration how anyone could fully understand not only the meaning of some words but prophecy in general before an event in history that could not possibly be expected in the carnal logic.<<<

>>>Ezekiel 34:13 And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country.<<<

>>>Which writers understood prior to 1948 that Israel would again be a nation in the same land as God gave them originally after nearly 2000 years? Now look at the nations that are against Israel today. Compare that with the old Roman Empire region and much of the old understanding of prophecy and exegesis gets turned on its head.<<<

"The mountains of Israel by the rivers?" Which rivers? How about this one?

"And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb." (Rev 22:1 KJV)

That is the river that procedes out of throne of God and of the Lamb, which is in heavenly Jerusalem, which is the Church. Also, there is this passage in the gospel of John referring to the Day of Pentecost:

"In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)" (John 7:37-39 KJV)

The rivers of living water flowed out of the mouth and by the works of the apostles and others who received the Holy Ghost on the day of Pentecost.

And what about verse 23 of that chapter in Ezekiel, and a corresponding passage in Hosea?

"And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd. And I the Lord will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the Lord have spoken it." (Eze 34:23-24 KJV)

"For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim: Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the Lord their God, and David their king; and shall fear the Lord and his goodness in the latter days." (Hos 3:4-5 KJV)

David has been dead for a long time; so that prince and king has to be a spiritual prince and king. The only way one can derive a physical reign on earth from those passages is by spiritualizing the scriptures.

Ezekiel does write about the tribes returning to their own land in chapter 47. This is from a recent article by a dispensationalist author, posted on a recent thread:

"The first section, Ezekiel 47:13-14, states that the division of all of the Promised Land will be the final fulfillment of God’s covenant promises. The second section, Ezekiel 47:15-20, deals with the boundaries of the Land in the Millennium. In verses 15-17, the northern boundary will extend from the Mediterranean Sea, incorporating much of modern-day Lebanon and parts of modern-day Syria over to the Euphrates River. The eastern border will move south from the Euphrates River, incorporating the Golan Heights and portions of Syria almost up to Damascus, and continue south to the Jordan River where it exits from the Sea of Galilee."

"The third section, Ezekiel 48:1-7, describes the northern division of the Land as subdivided for seven of the Twelve Tribes. The tribes will be settled running north to south in the following order: Dan, Asher, Naphtali, Manasseh, Ephraim, Reuben, and Judah. The western and eastern borders will parallel each other. . . Then the fifth section, Ezekiel 48:23-29, describes the division of the Land for the remaining five tribes. Again, running from north to south, the tribes will be settled in the following order: Benjamin, Simeon, Issachar, Zebulun, and Gad; running along the southern border in verses 28-29." [The Land Promise of the Abrahamic Covenant, Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum, Pre-Trib Study Group]

There is only one problem with Fruchtenbaum's analysis. In Revelation 7:5-8, the tribes listed are: Reuben, Gad, Juda, Aser, Nephthalim, Manasses, Levi, Simeon, Issachar, Zabulon, Joseph, and Benjamin. Something doesn't fit. Two of those tribes Ezekiel listed, Dan and Ephraim, have not existed for over 2000 years; nor do they match the tribes listed in the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

Where did the tribe of Dan and Ephraim come from, and what happened to Joseph and Levi?

That can only mean one thing: Ezekiel was writing about the restoration of land to Israel after their return from Babylon: not 2500 years in the future; and, according to the author's interpretation, that was the final fulfillment of God's covenant promises.

There are a myriad of misinterpretations by dispensational "literalists."

>>>The same holds true for your belief that AD70 was the fulfillment of much of prophecy. The re-gathering of Israel as a nation is not a coincidence.<<<

Maybe the regathering was a scheme created by wealthy influential men, such as Samuel Untermyer, a good buddy of Cyrus I Scofield, of Scofield Reference Bible fame. Untermyer was one of the nastiest, most deceitful people, that ever lived. Check him out.

Philip

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.