Predestination: Should We Even Talk About It?

Full Title: Predestination: Should We Even Talk About It? Is the doctrine of predestination an obstacle to the usefulness of preaching?

I’d like to begin a series on—get ready—predestination. Yes, I said that word. I know this is not the most popular topic to bring up among polite company; in fact, it’s downright divisive, isn’t it? In the fifth century, Augustine recounted in his letters that some said, “The doctrine of predestination is an obstacle to the usefulness of preaching.” And who wants an obstacle? In the sixteenth century, John Calvin had to go out of his way to state that preachers should preach no less on the deity of the Son, the deity of the Holy Spirit, or the creation of the universe than on predestination.

Should we even talk or preach about predestination? Because predestination is a biblical doctrine, the answer is a resounding “Yes!” You see, without predestination, you would have no Bible. Abram was chosen out of Ur of the Chaldeans (Gen. 12). Israel was chosen out of all the nations of the earth (Deut. 4:37; 7:6–8; Ps. 105:6). A new Israelite remnant was chosen after their exile (Isa. 41:8–9; 42:1; 43:1–7; 44:1–2; 45:4). Jesus taught predestination (Matt. 11:25–27;13:11–16; Mark 4:11–12; John 6:37, 66; 10:26–30; 14:1; 17:6, 9, 11–12). The Apostles taught predestination (Rom. 8:28–39; 9–11; Eph. 1; Phil. 1:6; 2:13; 1 Peter 2:5–10). Since predestination is a biblical doctrine, we must talk about it. The question is how?

Let me point you to a succinct answer. When theologians, pastors, and elders from throughout Europe gathered in the Dutch town of Dordrecht in 1618–1619 to deal with the Arminian controversy, they offered this statement:

“Just as, by God’s wise plan, this teaching concerning divine election has been proclaimed through the prophets, Christ himself, and the apostles, in Old and New Testament times, and has subsequently been committed to writing in the Holy Scriptures, so also today in God’s church, for which it was specifically intended, this teaching must be set forth—with a spirit of discretion, in a godly and holy manner, at the appropriate time and place, without inquisitive searching into the ways of the Most High. This must be done for the glory of God’s most holy name, and for the lively comfort of his people.” (Canons of Dort 1.14)

This blog post lays out the ground rules for how we must talk and preach about predestination as Christ’s witnesses in the world.

We must talk about predestination with discernment. When Paul penned Romans 9, he was writing to a Christian congregation made up of Jews and Gentiles in distinction from unbelieving Jews and Gentiles. Believing Jews were those of the promise while unbelieving Jews were those merely of the flesh (Rom. 9:3, 6–8). Paul used another illustration of this concept when he said that among the Jews there were those who were of the vast sand of ethnic Israel while there were also those who were of a small gathered remnant (Rom. 9:27).

This means that when you talk and preach about predestination, you must always keep in mind those you with whom you are speaking. Are you talking to unbelievers? If so, are they hard-hearted and scoffing at the doctrine, or do you discern the working of the Holy Spirit in their genuinely questioning the truth? Are you talking to a congregation of professing believers? If so, some may be strong in faith and able to plumb the depths and scale the heights of such a doctrine, while others may be weak in faith and the very mention of predestination will cause them doubts and worries. Are you talking to adults, with all the distinctions above, or are there also children in the audience? And while you are talking to such a congregation, keep in mind that there are those who genuinely believe, whether strongly or weakly, and that there may also be those who are merely pretending to believe, as hypocrites do.

We must also talk and preach about predestination with reverence. Paul talks reverently of predestination in Romans 9:20–21: “But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, ‘Why have you made me like this?’ Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?” This was the climax of Paul’s argument in Romans 9. Paul begins his argument by talking about the unbelief of the ancient covenant people, his fellow Jews (vv. 1–5). The first objection he addresses was whether God’s promise to Israel had failed (v. 6). But Paul says that ever since God began his promises to the patriarchs there was a distinction between those “descended from Israel” and those who truly “belong to Israel” (v. 6), between those who are merely Abraham’s outward children of the flesh and those who truly are children because they are Abraham’s offspring of the promise (vv. 7–8). Paul starts in history and then works his way back into eternity: “though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls” (v. 11).

The next objection is whether God is unjust because he chooses one and not another. Paul’s answer is, “By no means!” (v. 14) He doesn’t speculate but simply quotes Scripture (vv. 15–17), concluding that God “has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills” (Rom. v. 18).

But if this is true, then “why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” (v. 19) Do you hear the objection? It’s that predestination makes us robots since there’s nothing we can do about it. Paul doesn’t offer a philosophical response sorting out this conundrum. He asserts that God is God and we are not; he is the Creator and we are creatures; he is a potter and we are clay (vv. 20–21).

Because predestination is a topic shrouded in mystery as well as much misunderstanding, we should speak of it reverently as Paul did. Notice how Paul ends this entire section of Romans 9–11 by saying, “Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!” (Rom. 11:33). In commenting on this passage John Calvin said that when we discuss God’s eternal counsel “we must always restrain both our language and manner of thinking, so that when we have spoken soberly and within the limits of the Word of God, our argument may finally end in an expression of astonishment.”

We must also talk of predestination in such a way that it is for God’s glory. “God has failed.” “God is unjust.” “God makes us robots.” Paul’s point in Romans 9 is that predestination solves these objections because it is ultimately for God’s glory, not our intellectual satisfaction. “Who are you, O man?” (v. 20) God is God. You are not. “Has the potter no right?” (v. 21) Absolutely he does. He glorifies Himself in His pottery, making “one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use” (v. 21). Paul’s ultimate point is that God glorifies Himself in His works: “What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory” (vv. 22–23, emphasis mine).

When you talk or preach about predestination, are you doing so to bring him praise? “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world” (Eph. 1:3–4). When you talk or preach about predestination, are you doing so to magnify His grace? “To the praise of his glorious grace” (v. 6). In fact, Paul repeats this doxology two more times inEphesians 1:12 and 1:14 because God has poured out His extravagant grace upon His people. When you talk or preach about predestination, can your words be “translated” to say this: “For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen” (Rom. 11:36).

Finally, we must talk of predestination in such a way that it is also for our comfort. What comfort does Romans 9 have for you, for the world, and for me? After starting with recorded redemptive history in the Old Testament, then tracing backward into eternity, Paul ends up placing the gospel right in our laps, in our own personal history: “even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?” (Rom. 9:24). Don’t accuse God of lying. Don’t accuse God of injustice. Don’t accuse God of making robots. Rather, believe.

But the objection people had and still have is that when we talk of predestination, it is only beneficial for those whom God “calls.” When you talk of predestination, it should always lead to the gospel: “Do you want to know that you have been called into God’s kingdom because he predestined you for that glory? Then believe in Jesus.” When we talk this way, we lead people to the joy of knowing that while they once were “not my [God’s] people,” God now calls them “my people” and “sons of the living God” (Rom. 9:25–26). As Martin Luther once wrote:

“Follow the order of the Epistle to the Romans. Worry first about Christ and the gospel, that you may recognize your sins and his grace, and then fight your sin, as Paul teaches from the first to the eighth chapters. Then, when you come under the cross and suffering in the eighth chapters, this will teach you of foreknowledge in chapters 9, 10, and 11, and how comforting it is.”

Yes, we should talk about predestination. We should talk about it in a way that leads sinners to Jesus Christ, which brings God eternal glory, and which brings God’s people eternal comfort.

Yes--the doctrine that says God creates eternal souls for the sole purpose of throwing them into Hell. No thanks

You sure did not get this doctrine from God. Going to 'hell' is a 'choice' that every soul gets to make. People love choices and so they are free to make them.

Predestination is an action that took place before the casting down/overthrow of the first rebel who decided he was god. Some souls did not follow the rebel, they were deemed loyal, trustworthy thus set aside to do the LORD's work through this flesh age. All souls in a flesh body are sinners, except Christ.

Strange how 'kings of their own castles' have issues with the Creator that created everything expecting discipline.

Yes, we should talk about predestination. We should talk about it in a way that leads sinners to Jesus Christ, which brings God eternal glory, and which brings God’s people eternal comfort.

Predestination is a history lesson. Problem for most is they fit Peter's description of IIPeter 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of,

that by the word of God the heavens were of OLD, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6 (When predestination took place) Whereby the world that then WAS, being overflowed with water, perished:

This is not Noah's flood...

Young earth creation is not Biblical.

"Every child who's attended church has heard John 3:16. In that one verse the truth is pretty hard to miss."

It may seem hard to miss, but notice this verse is not an "offer" (which is the way most folks take this). It is a statement. Read it carefully and you will see Jesus is simply saying those who believe on Him will never perish. He does not say, "So, anyone interested?" He does not say, "And, anyone who wants to can come to Me." Actually, later in John (6:44 & 65) He says that no one CAN come unless the Father draws them and then absolutely every one of them will be saved.

It is Biblical.

Of that there is no argument. What is being instructed is not understood let alone taught by the majority in Christianity. I am reminded of Paul bringing forth into the Gospel IKings 19:10-18 in Romans 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him. "I have reserved to Myself seven thousand man, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal." .... The reason Christ spoke in parables, it is not given that all will understand. Matthew 13:10- IF God places a blindness over the eyes no man is going to rip it off. That is why there is the 'Lord's day', a time of direct teaching as foretold by Ezekiel 38-to the end.

Amen. That “draw” in John 6:44 is the Greek “helkuo helko” which means “to drag.” The same word was used to describe dragging in a net brimming with fish in John 21.

But there are a couple of passages that eliminate “free will” from the salvation equation:

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

So we’re born again (absolutely) not of or originating in blood or inheritance, nor of or originating in our will, nor of or originating in the will of any other man, but of or originating in God’s will.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

So our faith is (absolutely) not of or originating within ourselves, it is the gift of God.

We’re saved by the grace of God, not by our works. Grace is undeserved merit. Choosing righteousness and salvation would be the ultimate “good work.”

If we come to repentance and faith, it’s because God changed our will from hating Him to loving Him. Like the Apostle Paul said here:

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Those “nones” are absolute negations.

There’s no doubt this is a hard doctrine, and I was raised Arminian like most of the US nowadays. But this is why we’ll be singing His praises for all eternity. He chose us, who deserved hell just like everybody else, to worship Him for all eternity.

Like Spurgeon said:

“I know nothing, nothing again, that is more humbling for us than this doctrine of election. I have sometimes fallen prostrate before it, when endeavouring to understand it. I have stretched my wings, and, eagle-like, I have soared towards the sun. Steady has been my eye, and true my wing, for a season; but, when I came near it, and the one thought possessed me,—”God hath from the beginning chosen you unto salvation,” I was lost in its lustre, I was staggered with the mighty thought; and from the dizzy elevation down came my soul, prostrate and broken, saying, “Lord, I am nothing, I am less than nothing. Why me? Why me?”

This is my favourite passage on the subject, because this is what happened to me:

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!" (Rom 10:13-15 KJV)

Whether that was predestination, or not, I do not know. It did not happen in a church, because I had not been inside a church in over a decade.

Philip

From your perspective does God know who will “choose Him” before they were created?

Psalm 14, Psalm 53 and Romans 3 (which repeat one another) says that God looked over Mankind as a whole ("over the sons of men") and without His intervention, the Answer was None.

None Sought Him, None Understood Him and None did "Good" in His eyes. None came to Him on their own and choose Him.

Man's nature is such that he or she is so wrapped up in their selves and their sins that they will not look to God, confess their sins and be saved despite the evidence of God in Nature and in everything we see. The Apostle Paul calls this nature as been "dead in trespasses and sin".

Therefore an Act of God must occur for anyone not to be "dead" anymore. Their brain must be reprogrammed to accept faith (as faith is totally alien to the natural mans thinking), he or she must have a heart transplant (the heart of stone must go), they are given Ears to Hear (as Christ said) so that they can hear the Word, Believe and Confess the faith which God has planted in them.

So the ability to choose Him is vastly more complicated and involved than most think.

Yes--the doctrine that says God creates eternal souls for the sole purpose of throwing them into Hell.

Nope. It is the Doctrine that God revealed Himself in Nature and His Word to know how to avoid Hell. Yet, men choose Hell through their willful ignorance of Him and reprobation (through the wallowing in the deadness of their own sin). That God has Compassion and Mercy on some deliberately (a loving predestination) leaving the rest to their own devices.

None who are at the Judgement Throne of God will have any excuse to say He was not Just or that they were not warned. All who do not believe upon the Sin bearer (The Lord Jesus Christ) for Salvation will know right away what they missed. It will be as plain as day before the Throne as nothing will be hidden from them there.

Predestination = letting someone else run you life

Predestination = Undeserved love and forethought to folks who are undeserving of anything.

It is best summed up in the picture of Roman adoption. A rich Roman farmer has had no children yet wants to pass on the legacy of his name. He would take a slaves child, give it His name and the inheritance of the entire farm before the child even knows it. The child will be lord and master of the farm and has not the foggiest idea that this will be so.

There is nothing the child does to earn it, there is nothing the child even knows to appropriate it. The Adoption is done without the child being a part of it.

It is a wonderful thing. Yet modern man says it is not fair and that everyone should be given everything.

Instead God is just to give modern man his just deserts and answer Him in what is truly fair. That he spurned the evidence of Himself in Creation and the free gift of His Salvation to anyone who believes upon Christ atonement. This is what is fair to all.

In effect, out choices trump what God intended or predestined for us.

Sorry, nothing trumps God. Nothing says what He wills will not come to pass. Nothing can stay His hand.

The Lord Jesus Christ, on this subject says "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing John 6:39.

If man's will trumps God's then Christ would loose some, but He says He looses Nothing.

Sorry, God is omnipotent, He cannot be trumped.

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