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To: Elsie

This twisted grammar is old and weak.
“Thou art Peter, and upon THIS rock....”

Christ is clearly continuing to refer to Peter.

This “little rock” vs. “big rock” nonsense is tortured linguistics, intended to ignore Christ’s clear meaning.

This and the rest of your argument would have us prefer YOUR “infallibility”, over that assigned by Christ Himself.


132 posted on 03/16/2014 6:13:36 AM PDT by G Larry (There's the Beef!)
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To: G Larry; Elsie
>> This and the rest of your argument would have us prefer YOUR “infallibility”, over that assigned by Christ Himself.<<

Acts 15:8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness by granting them the holy Spirit just as he did us. 9 He made no distinction between us and them, for by faith he purified their hearts

1 Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

134 posted on 03/16/2014 7:24:15 AM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: G Larry; Elsie; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; caww; count-your-change; ...
Christ is clearly continuing to refer to Peter.

This “little rock” vs. “big rock” nonsense is tortured linguistics, intended to ignore Christ’s clear meaning.

This and the rest of your argument would have us prefer YOUR “infallibility”, over that assigned by Christ Himself.

It's not tortured linguistics. Failure to correctly translate the original Greek, which makes the distinction, is the problem

The problem is basing an entire doctrine on one mistranslated verse.

Petra – Peter rock

Matthew 16:18 - http://bible.cc/matthew/16-18.htm

Jesus said that Peter was *petros*(masculine) and that on this *petra*(feminine) He would build His church.

Greek: 4074 Pétros (a masculine noun) – properly, a stone (pebble), such as a small rock found along a pathway. 4074 /Pétros (”small stone”) then stands in contrast to 4073 /pétra (”cliff, boulder,” Abbott-Smith).

“4074 (Pétros) is an isolated rock and 4073 (pétra) is a cliff” (TDNT, 3, 100). “4074 (Pétros) always means a stone . . . such as a man may throw, . . . versus 4073 (pétra), a projecting rock, cliff” (S. Zodhiates, Dict).

4073 pétra (a feminine noun) – “a mass of connected rock,” which is distinct from 4074 (Pétros) which is “a detached stone or boulder” (A-S). 4073 (pétra) is a “solid or native rock, rising up through the earth” (Souter) – a huge mass of rock (a boulder), such as a projecting cliff.

4073 (petra) is “a projecting rock, cliff (feminine noun) . . . 4074 (petros, the masculine form) however is a stone . . . such as a man might throw” (S. Zodhiates, Dict).

It’s also a strange way to word the sentence that He would call Peter a rock and say that on this I will build my church instead of *on you* as would be grammatically correct in talking to a person.

There is no support from the original Greek for the idea that Jesus meant Peter to be that which He was going to build His church on. The nouns are not the same as one is feminine and the other masculine and denote different objects.

140 posted on 03/16/2014 8:40:43 AM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith....)
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To: G Larry
Christ is clearly continuing to refer to Peter.

No; He's not.

You seem unable to clearly understand Scripture when years of teaching have CONVINCED you it says something else.

160 posted on 03/16/2014 2:06:25 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: G Larry; metmom; Elsie
This “little rock” vs. “big rock” nonsense is tortured linguistics, intended to ignore Christ’s clear meaning.

And yet it is EXACTLY the logic Saint Augustine takes in his explanation for those texts! Observe:

For petra (rock) is not derived from Peter, but Peter from petra; just as Christ is not called so from the Christian, but the Christian from Christ. For on this very account the Lord said, ‘On this rock will I build my Church,’ because Peter had said, ‘Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.’ On this rock, therefore, He said, which thou hast confessed, I will build my Church. For the Rock (Petra) was Christ; and on this foundation was Peter himself built. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Christ Jesus. The Church, therefore, which is founded in Christ received from Him the keys of the kingdom of heaven in the person of Peter, that is to say, the power of binding and loosing sins. For what the Church is essentially in Christ, such representatively is Peter in the rock (petra); and in this representation Christ is to be understood as the Rock, Peter as the Church. (Augustine Tractate CXXIV; Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers: First Series, Volume VII Tractate CXXIV)

(http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf107.iii.cxxv.html)

“Christ, you see, built his Church not on a man but on Peter’s confession. What is Peter’s confession? ‘You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.’ There’s the rock for you, there’s the foundation, there’s where the Church has been built, which the gates of the underworld cannot conquer.” (Augustine, John Rotelle, O.S.A., Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine , © 1993 New City Press, Sermons, Vol III/6, Sermon 229P.1, p. 327

“In a passage in this book, I said about the Apostle Peter: ‘On him as on a rock the Church was built.’...But I know that very frequently at a later time, I so explained what the Lord said: ‘Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church,’ that it be understood as built upon Him whom Peter confessed saying: ‘Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,’ and so Peter, called after this rock, represented the person of the Church which is built upon this rock, and has received ‘the keys of the kingdom of heaven.’ For, ‘Thou art Peter’ and not ‘Thou art the rock’ was said to him. But ‘the rock was Christ,’ in confessing whom, as also the whole Church confesses, Simon was called Peter. But let the reader decide which of these two opinions is the more probable. — The Fathers of the Church (Washington D.C., Catholic University, 1968), Saint Augustine, The Retractations Chapter 20.1:.

Compare Augustine’s argument with Metmom's facts again about the Greek of Petros and Petra:

Peter – rock Matthew 16:18 - http://bible.cc/matthew/16-18.htm

Jesus said that Peter was *petros*(masculine) and that on this *petra*(feminine) He would build His church.

Greek: 4074 Pétros (a masculine noun) – properly, a stone (pebble), such as a small rock found along a pathway. 4074 /Pétros (”small stone”) then stands in contrast to 4073 /pétra (”cliff, boulder,” Abbott-Smith).

“4074 (Pétros) is an isolated rock and 4073 (pétra) is a cliff” (TDNT, 3, 100). “4074 (Pétros) always means a stone . . . such as a man may throw, . . . versus 4073 (pétra), a projecting rock, cliff” (S. Zodhiates, Dict).

4073 pétra (a feminine noun) – “a mass of connected rock,” which is distinct from 4074 (Pétros) which is “a detached stone or boulder” (A-S). 4073 (pétra) is a “solid or native rock, rising up through the earth” (Souter) – a huge mass of rock (a boulder), such as a projecting cliff.

4073 (petra) is “a projecting rock, cliff (feminine noun) . . . 4074 (petros, the masculine form) however is a stone . . . such as a man might throw” (S. Zodhiates, Dict).

Augustine again:

“For petra (rock) is not derived from Peter, but Peter from petra;”

176 posted on 03/16/2014 8:26:44 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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