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1 posted on 03/14/2014 4:23:53 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
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To: PhilipFreneau

it is.

the saints come back to rule and reign for 1000 years. the world is a mess and needs order. it will take time. during this time there will be mortal and immortal people. people will be able to accept Christ as savior and lord. nations will bring tributes to Christ who reigns from Jerusalem.

even with all this some will not believe. satan is loosed at the end of this period and is able to deceive the unbelievers at this time to try to overthrow God, and they will fail.


2 posted on 03/14/2014 4:29:13 PM PDT by Secret Agent Man (Gone Galt; Not averse to Going Bronson.)
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To: PhilipFreneau

If it is in the Book, it is biblical.


3 posted on 03/14/2014 4:38:01 PM PDT by stars & stripes forever (Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord.)
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To: PhilipFreneau
"There are two events noticeably absent from the passage:

1) There is no mention of a reign on earth of any kind."

Well, if you conveniently end your quote in verse 6, you can make that statement, but if you include the next few verses, you cannot:

"7When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves."

(Rev 20:7-9)

Satan gathers the nations from the four corner of the earth, and they march across the earth to get to Jerusalem, where God's people (spoken of in verses 4-6) are.

4 posted on 03/14/2014 4:48:21 PM PDT by Boogieman
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To: PhilipFreneau
You quotation of Rev 20 is a bit short to provide context:

20:1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to othe bottomless pit and a great chain. 2 And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, 3 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while. 4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. 9 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, 10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2001). (Re 20:1–10). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

The viewpoint of the author beginning in verse 1 does seem to be the earth. The next shift in viewpoint to heaven is in verse 11. Thus, it is not a stretch to believe that the millennial reign itself is on earth. The issue at hand is how literal these symbols can be taken.

I lean heavily toward the millennial position. Dr. Micheal Heiser has some excellent youtube videos on eschatology. He points out that the verses I have cited above are the primary support for a doctrine of a millennial reign of Christ on earth. So if you don't see it here, then you probably aren't going to see it.

5 posted on 03/14/2014 4:51:25 PM PDT by the_Watchman
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To: PhilipFreneau
and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands

And who is it who beheads unbelievers? This seems to point in a certain direction at this time in history.

7 posted on 03/14/2014 4:54:16 PM PDT by RoosterRedux (The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing -- Socrates)
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To: PhilipFreneau

Regarding Christ’s throne being in Heaven, you are correct that it is there, as many verses attest. However, none of those verses say that Christ must remain in Heaven for all time. The preceding chapter of Revelation actually depicts Christ, as the rider of the white horse, descending from heaven when he defeats the beast and false prophet:

“11I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. 12His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.”a He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:

king of kings and lord of lords.

17And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

19Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.”

(Rev 19:11-21)

So, the answer to the apparent problem is simple: Christ is ruling from Heaven now, but at the end of days, He will return to destroy His enemies, and then the 1000 year reign begins.


8 posted on 03/14/2014 4:57:10 PM PDT by Boogieman
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To: PhilipFreneau
There are two events noticeably absent from the passage: 1) There is no mention of a reign on earth of any kind. 2) There is no time limit placed on Christ's reign: it only states that those who are resurrected reign with Christ for "1000 years."

True but the use of the terms "living" and "1000 years" is interesting. Heaven transcends space and time. Angels exist in heaven but there is not a notion in scripture of angels living for a period of time and then dying. So the use of "living" and "1000 years" seems to imply this occurred on Earth.

9 posted on 03/14/2014 4:59:53 PM PDT by plain talk
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To: PhilipFreneau

“According to Paul, those of the first resurrection are not coming back to earth.”

No, the verse does not actually say that. It says we will be caught up into the air to meet the Lord (who is descending from Heaven, just as Revelation details), and that we shall always be with the Lord. If the Lord is already not in Heaven when we meet Him, but descending to the earth, then why should we assume that we would go straight to Heaven and stay there for all time? That would contradict the verse you quoted, since Christ isn’t in Heaven at that moment, so we would have to leave Him in order to get there.


10 posted on 03/14/2014 5:00:57 PM PDT by Boogieman
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To: PhilipFreneau

It’s 2014 AD

What about the other thousand years?


16 posted on 03/14/2014 5:59:30 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: PhilipFreneau

Not all scripture is meant to be taken literally. Here is an example:

Psalm 50:10
New International Version (NIV)
10 for every animal of the forest is mine,
and the cattle on a thousand hills.

It does not mean God owns the cattle on exactly one thousand hill. It means he owns all of creation.


18 posted on 03/14/2014 6:04:15 PM PDT by SeaHawkFan
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To: PhilipFreneau
The rule by Christ and his saints on earth after the 2nd coming is presupposed in the Bible. In the book of Daniel, we see it prophesied in such passages as the following: Daniel 2 pictures a succession of earthly kingdoms, the last one crushed by a stone from heaven, after which it becomes a great “mountain” (“mountain” is prophetic scripture signifies a kingdom, or world empire) filling the whole earth. The “stone” from heaven crushing the last kingdom, the kingdom of antichrist, is the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ -

Dan. 2:35, the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

Daniel 7 also pictures a succession of earthly kingdoms, the last one cast down and repossessed by the saints of the most High. The last earthly kingdom, that of the “beast” or the antichrist, is taken over by the saints.

Dan. 7:18, But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

Dan. 7:22, Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Dan. 7:27, And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High

In Rev. 20, that those of the first resurrection are the ones who rule on earth with Christ should be presupposed by Bible believers - such passages as these above from Daniel, for example. It is only those influenced by some variation of philosophic Gnosticism that see otherwise.

20 posted on 03/14/2014 6:18:38 PM PDT by sasportas
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To: PhilipFreneau

Yes, He reigns on earth a thousand years, and with a rod of iron.

It will take that much time to sanctify the human race after the Great Tribulation.

You really don’t want the human race to rule all things in its present state, do you?


27 posted on 03/14/2014 8:18:01 PM PDT by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: PhilipFreneau

Those who think everything in the Bible should be read literally need to read Song of Solomon. Here is just one example (there can be no doubt as to what the woman is referring):

16 Awake, north wind,
and come, south wind!
Blow on my garden,
that its fragrance may spread everywhere.
Let my beloved come into his garden
and taste its choice fruits.


32 posted on 03/14/2014 8:40:04 PM PDT by SeaHawkFan
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To: PhilipFreneau
OK, time to weight in.
So, it should be apparent that Christ reigns forever from his throne in heaven. But what is the disposition of those resurrected during the first resurrection? Paul explains it this way:

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words." (1 Th 4:16-18 KJV)

According to Paul, those of the first resurrection are not coming back to earth.

I've been in and out for a while, not paying a great deal of attention. Your position, if I understand it correctly, is that "the first resurrection" was a physical resurrection at 70AD (more or less).

I find this "quirky" for several reasons.

  1. What Paul speaks of is a resurrection of the dead in Christ, followed immediately by a catching up of the living. The first might go unnoticed, but no one noticed the second? Unlikely. And how does the church continue?
  2. It makes the same kind of division I have seen from the dispensationalists. Two sets of Christians (first and second resurrection), with different fates, and thus different promises. They may be OK with that. I am not.
  3. Paul doesn't say those of the first resurrection aren't coming back to earth. What he does say, elsewhere, is that we are now while we are living out or lives in this age we are also "seated in heavenly places". Which I think is also the sense we see in Rev. 20.

I'll point you to a couple articles I have found helpful: The First Resurrection and The Covenant of the Seventieth Week, both by the late Meredith Kline.

In the first the author examines the interaction and parallelism of the first and second deaths and resurrections in Rev. 20. The second examines the structure of history laid down in Daniel's seventy sevens prophecy.

They're not long or especially difficult, and are worth your time to work through.

74 posted on 03/15/2014 10:00:57 AM PDT by Lee N. Field (I beat wasp nests with a stick for fun.)
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To: All

I’ve actually tried this numerous times on Bible students who have not every heard of such eschatological doctrines as Dispensational Pretrib, Amillennialist, Preterist, and Postmillennialist. I live in a part of the world where this is a very valid test (before the internet)

I ask them what they come up with on the tribulation, resurrection, second coming, and millennial. Without fail, they come up with the view known today as “Historic Premillennialism, i.e., all these things have not yet happened, they lie in the future, the 1st resurrection and 2nd coming closes out the great tribulation while ushering in the millennial reign of Jesus Christ on this earth. Which, as you might guess, is also what I believe.

This is the same view we see in the ECF (Early Church Fathers, Justin, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Hippolytus, etc.).
Now why, we might ask, would these students come up with this view?

Because that’s the way Matt. 24, Thess. 1 & 2, and the Revelation naturally reads!

These other doctrines are pure theory read into the word of God. Concocted in the mind of man...a form of humanism. They are not there. Some, especially the Preterists, are the worst at twisting the scripture to make them fit their preconceived theory. Such doctrines had not been invented yet in the time of the ECF.


94 posted on 03/15/2014 1:51:26 PM PDT by sasportas
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To: PhilipFreneau
1) There is no mention of a reign on earth of any kind.

Not in that passage...but:

Rev 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
Rev 5:10 And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth."

124 posted on 03/16/2014 12:43:18 PM PDT by DouglasKC
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