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To: buwaya

>> Where do your rights come from?
> Tradition, the social contract, biology, enlightened self
> interest, etc.

Then they are subject to the vicissitudes of the culture at large, and there is no reason for us to complain when they change. For example, why fight for “gun rights” if such things are a completely artificial construct?

>> Why do you wear clothes?
> Fashion, social acceptance, desire to avoid social
> friction, mating strategies, survival, comfort, etc.

I can see I should have qualified this question.
:)
If we are nothing more than mere animals, then why do we wear clothes? None of the animals do. When the weather is warm, what’s the point of being uncomfortable?

>> Why are there seven days in a week?
> A social convention, tradition.

All over the world? Even in “primitive” cultures?

>> How do you know what is good and what is evil?
> There is no such things as good and evil, just biological
> optimums or the opposite, enlightened self-interest, etc.

If there are no such things as good and evil, then why strive for justice? Who determines what kind of self-interest is “enlightened”? If only driven by biological drives, why don’t feral animals have the same moral sensibilities of obligation toward the weak and feeble members of their own species? How does helping the weak and feeble, the sick and elderly, advance our biological advantage? If anything, it compromises it.

> Biological programming towards reproduction and the
> survival of progeny; biological programming towards the
> survival of the group, etc.

I would submit that biology is very unlikely the only force driving sentient beings capable of abstract thought.


42 posted on 02/26/2014 4:08:03 PM PST by Westbrook (Children do not divide your love, they multiply it.)
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To: Westbrook

Just being a devils advocate, but I’ll bite -

” why fight for “gun rights” if such things are a completely artificial construct?”
Its not an artificial construct, necessarily. Take an argument from tradition. By its nature its an organic undesigned thing (see Burke). It just grew and persisted from human generation to human generation, mutating slowly. Humans create traditions like ants build nests. Humans fight for traditions - Macaulays “Ashes of their fathers”. One can go in a different direction with the other takes on the question, all different and all mostly internally consistent.

On clothes -

Some human societies have gone naked if it seemed reasonable. Ancient Greece for instance, where (male) nudity was normal. And there are plenty of primitive or semi-primitive examples, the classic National Geographic excuse for nude pictures. My list of justifications stands - we are social animals and social norms are organic.

On the week -

This was not universal. It has become a (nearly) universal convention only because of the influence of the Western Christian and Muslim societies went global. China in ancient times had either a 5-day or a 10-day “week”, the Aztecs had a 13-day week, etc. There have been all sorts of variations, some of which still exist.

As for good and evil, you will have to look for a better man than I am to argue the other side ! Still, I don’t doubt some clever atheistic apologist could answer you lengthily if not convincingly.

“I would submit that biology is very unlikely the only force driving sentient beings capable of abstract thought.”

Well, yes, I think thats certainly true. Still, a clever atheist would find reasons to deny this. Such as, for instance, that we may be fooling ourselves as to how little we are driven by our biological natures. We are more animalistic than we think, etc.


62 posted on 02/26/2014 4:35:08 PM PST by buwaya
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