Posted on 02/07/2014 6:11:36 AM PST by CynicalBear
Actually no it doesn’t. See my post 86 to see just one of the passages that show that is so.<<
>>If tying the rapture to the resurrection upsets you, it must upset you more to see Paul in 1 Cor. 15:54b (quoting Isa. 25:7-9, in context)<<
Not in the least. If you don’t take that verse in context with the rest of scripture I suppose you could see it that way but when put in context it makes perfect sense.
>>tying said resurrection/rapture to the revelation (unveiling)<<
Only in the minds of those who fail to take all of scripture into account. It does to those who find the need to inject meaning where it doesn’t exist.
>>so often in the NT referring to the post-trib event.<<
Not once does the NT refer to a post trib rapture. Both the OT and the NT clearly define a catching up of the saints prior to the seven years left that God will again deal with the nation of Israel after which there will be a resurrection of the tribulation saints to live again for the millennium.
Let’s look at your quote of 1 Corinthians.
1 Corinthians 15: 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
That “brought to pass” is referencing the entire tribulation period and millennium after which there will be a new heaven and a new earth and it’s at that time that death will be swallowed up in victory.
The post trib people have a serious problem because it clearly says that it’s not until after the millennium that death will be swallowed up in victory. So if the post trib people claim the rapture happens after the trib but before the millennium how do they account for the deaths after Lucifer is allowed loose after the millennium and its then that the unbelievers are resurrected and sent to hell?
We should clarify that satan comes as the False Christ. He comes in " peacefully and prosperously", suckering in all the Rapture bunnies. Those are the ones taken out of the field first. "WE" are to remain faithful until the very end.
The very fact that you know this eliminates that from happening. They did not know this. The Word of the Lord progresses with time.
Well, C-Bear, you are quite the debater. On other threads, I’ve found myself almost always siding with you. Sorry, not on this one.
On such a subject as this, the stakes are high, very high. I think we should be trying to get to the real truth on this than just debating.
As a former pretribber, I spent many years trying to get to the bottom of this, I seriously doubt that there is very few here who have spent as many hours, yea, years, on this subject than I.
C-Bear, my friend, I must tell you the naked truth, there is no pretrib rapture. Nobody is getting out of here until the last day.
Actually, it is the pretrib view that “injects meaning where it doesn’t exist.” You can’t see it, of course, I couldn’t either at one time, as long as I read scripture through the pretrib spectacles I had perched on the end of my nose. I didn’t realize it, but I was reading into scripture something that really isn’t there.
Pretrib has a great many inferences, but no scripture that actually defines the two stage second coming so essential to their belief. Try laying aside your two stage spectacles for once, and looking at all these passages you cite as if there is only one second coming. It’ll surprise you.
I enjoyed conversing with you, pal, have a good day.
How interesting. I came from where you are to seeing the pre trib very clearly through now about 40 years of study. The more I study becuase of conversations like this the more convinced I become.
It’s sort of like the believer and the unbeliever. The unbeliever thinks the believer is wasting his time. The believer can simply counter with all the positive aspects of being a believer but the believer really has nothing to lose if he is wrong. The unbeliever on the other hand most certainly does.
Let's see if I understand the author correctly.
As a thief veils his presence from those he wishes to steal from, so the Lord has veiled the doctrine of the Pre-Tribulation coming for His church.
The author admits the doctrine in a novelty. That is a very Weird statement he makes, BTW.
Anyway
Of course there are many honest, born-again believers in Christ do not agree with the Pre-Trib doctrine. Those believers are not seeking to devour those of us who do. I have to seriously question the motivation of those who focus the majority of their “work for the Lord” in vitriolic attacks launched against the hearts of those who hold to the Pre-Trib Rapture doctrine. Such attacks are an attribute of Satan, not of Christ.
Anyway, per the author it's OK not to not believe "the Pre-Trib doctrine" (a metonymy, probably, for the whole mass of bog standard dispensational teaching), but if one says anything, one is a spawn of Satan.
It seems that he can't quite bring himself to call them unbelievers, but he wants to.
1 Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.
This is the kind of dancing around that I see in the author, and elsewhere. Say what you mean.
The implication that a nation can be founded through terrorism, as the Irgun and Sterns did while the Allies were fighting for their lives? Nothing more than opportunism.
I tend to let scripture speak. That way it’s God who decides if the hearer has ears to hear.
Jeremiah 32: 36 And now therefore thus saith the Lord, the God of Israel, concerning this city, whereof ye say, It shall be delivered into the hand of the king of Babylon by the sword, and by the famine, and by the pestilence;
37 Behold, I will gather them out of all countries, whither I have driven them in mine anger, and in my fury, and in great wrath; and I will bring them again unto this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely:
38 And they shall be my people, and I will be their God:
39 And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:
40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.
41 Yea, I will rejoice over them to do them good, and I will plant them in this land assuredly with my whole heart and with my whole soul
. 42 For thus saith the Lord; Like as I have brought all this great evil upon this people, so will I bring upon them all the good that I have promised them.
43 And fields shall be bought in this land, whereof ye say, It is desolate without man or beast; it is given into the hand of the Chaldeans.
44 Men shall buy fields for money, and subscribe evidences, and seal them, and take witnesses in the land of Benjamin, and in the places about Jerusalem, and in the cities of Judah, and in the cities of the mountains, and in the cities of the valley, and in the cities of the south: for I will cause their captivity to return, saith the Lord.
Zephaniah 3:20 At that time will I bring you again, even in the time that I gather you: for I will make you a name and a praise among all people of the earth, when I turn back your captivity before your eyes, saith the LORD.
Isaiah 27:12 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel.
Jeremiah 31:10 Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.
Ezekiel 39:27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations
Isaiah 54:7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee.
Deuteronomy 30:3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
Deuteronomy 30:4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
Nehemiah 1:9 But if ye turn unto me, and keep my commandments, and do them; though there were of you cast out unto the uttermost part of the heaven, yet will I gather them from thence, and will bring them unto the place that I have chosen to set my name there.
Isaiah 11:11-12 Then it will happen on that day that the Lord Will again recover the second time with His hand The remnant of His people, who will remain, From Assyria, Egypt, Pathros, Cush, Elam, Shinar, Hamath, And from the islands of the sea. And He will lift up a standard for the nations And assemble the banished ones of Israel, And will gather the dispersed of Judah From the four corners of the earth.
Jeremiah 29:14 I will be found by you,' declares the LORD, `and I will restore your fortunes and will gather you from all the nations and from all the places where I have driven you,' declares the LORD, `and I will bring you back to the place from where I sent you into exile.'
Jeremiah 32:37 "Behold, I will gather them out of all the lands to which I have driven them in My anger, in My wrath and in great indignation; and I will bring them back to this place and make them dwell in safety.
Ezekiel 11:17 Therefore say, `Thus says the Lord GOD, "I will gather you from the peoples and assemble you out of the countries among which you have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.
Ezekiel 20:34 I will bring you out from the peoples and gather you from the lands where you are scattered, with a mighty hand and with an outstretched arm and with wrath poured out;
Ezekiel 20:41 As a soothing aroma I will accept you when I bring you out from the peoples and gather you from the lands where you are scattered; and I will prove Myself holy among you in the sight of the nations.
Ezekiel 28:25 Thus says the Lord GOD, "When I gather the house of Israel from the peoples among whom they are scattered, and will manifest My holiness in them in the sight of the nations, then they will live in their land which I gave to My servant Jacob.
Ezekiel 34:13 I will bring them out from the peoples and gather them from the countries and bring them to their own land; and I will feed them on the mountains of Israel, by the streams, and in all the inhabited places of the land.
Ezekiel 36:24 For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land.
Ezekiel 37:21 Say to them, `Thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I will take the sons of Israel from among the nations where they have gone, and I will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land;
Jeremiah 31:8 Behold, I am bringing them from the north country, And I will gather them from the remote parts of the earth, Among them the blind and the lame, The woman with child and she who is in labor with child, together; A great company, they will return here.
Nothing more than opportunism ey? How many times does God have to say it for you to believe it?
Were do we find those feasts you mentioned in these passages?
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days." (Col 2:16)
"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." (Mat 7:12 KJV)
"Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law." (Rom 13:10 KJV)
"For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." (Gal 5:14 KJV)
"Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world." (Jam 1:27 KJV)
"If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors." (Jam 2:8-9 KJV)
Philip
>>>Your author abuses this clear teaching, by claiming, effectively, that what happens in that hour is that He whisks away the elect before the terrible phenomena of the Day begin. But Scripture does not describe that hour in that way anywhere at all. That’s an external figment imposed on the text. That is Darby’s invention.<<<
So true. And John Nelson really was an odd sorta fellow.
Philip
>>>God did say we are not destined to His wrath<<<
Where does it say that in the scripture?
Watch out there! Don't you know it is heresy to dispute the new-age doctrine of Dispensationalism? LOL! I have been labeled a heretic twice in the past week: once by Cynical Bear: a dispensationalist; and once by af_vet_1981: a Catholic (those are their own, self-proclaimed labels, not mine.) AF_Vet laid out this brilliant, but veiled deduction (no pun intended: )
"I would say I'm on the fence as to whether to view Replacement Theology/Preterism as an outright cult or heresy as it does not deny the basics. It does seem a poisonous fruit. It is notable that the Catholic Church, the Fundamentalists, and most Evangelicals deny it."
Note that AF_Vet considers Fundamentalists and most Evangelicals as allies to the Catholics in this matter. You would never know it with all the cat-fights they have on FR.
Cynical Bear was even more blunt: no beating-around-the-bush on his part:
"Take your Preterist heresy somewhere else. It isn’t received well here."
I tried to explain to him (and AF-Vet) that I was not a preterist, but a postmillennialist: but to no avail. Only later did I realize that a "preterist" to Cynical Bear is any protestant who is not a dispensationalist, or it appears that way.
Cynical Bear did virtually the same to you in his reply to this post; but in a veiled sorta way (no pun intended: )
"It’s sort of like the believer and the unbeliever. The unbeliever thinks the believer is wasting his time. The believer can simply counter with all the positive aspects of being a believer but the believer really has nothing to lose if he is wrong. The unbeliever on the other hand most certainly does."
What is he trying to say? Is this what Pentecostal's call "speaking in tongues?" I think what Cynical Bear is trying to say is, you are an unbeliever if you don't believe all the positive aspects of dispensationalism, such as:
1. the Church was an afterthought, created after the Jews rejected Christ (Isaiah 53 and Eph 5:25-27 not withstanding).
2. a third of the trees will be destroyed.
3. a third of mankind will be killed.
4. all green grass will be burnt up.
5. there are dual plans of salvation. One mentioned in the New Testament for Christians (believe in the Lord Jesus Christ,) and another created out of thin air for Jews. If you don't believe the "thin air" one, your are a heretic (or, in my case both a heretic and a self-hating Jew, according to AF_Vet.)
Numbers #2-4 leads me to believe that a hidden tenet of dispensationalism was the foundation for G.W.'s brilliant statement in 2008:
"I’ve abandoned free market principles to save the free market system."
The hidden tenet of dispensationalism in question is:
"Jesus must destroy the earth to save it."
That is a difficult concept for me to grasp, considering Eccl 1:4, Ps 104:1-5, John 3:17 and Rev 11:18. But I am just an old heretic: what do I know? (I know that question set me up for a snide remark, but you only go around once. LOL!)
By the way, I took the "What's Your Eschatology" test you linked on your profile, and I was 100% Amillennialist, 75% Postmillennialist, and 75% Preterist. I thought I was a Postmillennialist?
For the record, I didn't realize it until recently, but it truly is a badge of honor (as some postmillennialists have implied in the past) to be labeled a heretic or preterist by a dispensationalist.
Philip
I, myself, believe all of God's Word. How would you explain these verses in the context of all those you listed in #111, and in the context that Israel did not drive all the inhabitants out of the promised land?
"But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell. Moreover it shall come to pass, that I shall do unto you, as I thought to do unto them." (Num 33:55-56 KJV)
"And it shall be, if thou do at all forget the Lord thy God, and walk after other gods, and serve them, and worship them, I testify against you this day that ye shall surely perish. As the nations which the Lord destroyeth before your face, so shall ye perish; because ye would not be obedient unto the voice of the Lord your God." (Deu 8:19-20 KJV)
And what about this context, where a single seed is emphasized, rather than many?
"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." (Gal 3:14-16 KJV)
"And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there." (Isa 65:9 KJV)
"Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities." (Acts 3:25-26 KJV)
Thanks,
Philip
Okay....I have hesitated adding my .02 because I just don’t like getting into debates on religion. But this....this has got me concerned enough to toss in my opinion.
Let me get this straight: As Christians, we are to be post-Trib-there is no other choice. We are to experience famine, disease, persecution, torture, starvation, and untold suffering for seven whole years....and look FORWARD to it? Welcome it?
Doesn’t that strike people as INSANE? “Yes...become a Christian. You’ll get your sins forgiven...but it’ll cost ya!” Salvation and Heaven isn’t going to mean too much if you’re starved, watching your family get tortured. Unless you’re a masochist, who is going to look forward to that? Who wouldn’t BREAK under that? People say “I’ll never break! I am faithful to God!”.
Behold Example A: Peter. “Even if all should fall away, I will never do so, Lord!”
Look how that one turned out.
I know for a blue-eyed fact that I myself will not be able to take such torture. I will break. There is no doubt. I have told the Lord this many a time. He knows me, and He knows that is what I’ll end up doing if I have to go through that.
Hoagy, there is another interpretation which takes Christ's time context literally. Using that methodology, the Great Tribulation of Matt 24 occurred in the generation of his disciples during the forty and two month siege of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.
"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be . . . Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." (Mat 24:34 KJV)
An eyewitness to the siege and destruction, Flavius Josephus, a Jewish Historian and Priest, wrote this about the tribulation:
"That neither did any other city ever suffer such miseries, nor did any age ever breed a generation more fruitful in wickedness than this was, from the beginning of the world." [Wars Of The Jews V.10.5]
There was a horrible civil war inside the city that lasted during the entire siege. Jews from the three parts of the city (Rev 16:19) were killing each other and destroying each other's food supplies. The famine became so dire that women were eating their own children. This is Moses prophesying about the event 1500 years earlier:
"And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters, which the Lord thy God hath given thee, in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee: 54 So that the man that is tender among you, and very delicate, his eye shall be evil toward his brother, and toward the wife of his bosom, and toward the remnant of his children which he shall leave: 55 So that he will not give to any of them of the flesh of his children whom he shall eat: because he hath nothing left him in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee in all thy gates. 56 The tender and delicate woman among you, which would not adventure to set the sole of her foot upon the ground for delicateness and tenderness, her eye shall be evil toward the husband of her bosom, and toward her son, and toward her daughter, 57 And toward her young one that cometh out from between her feet, and toward her children which she shall bear: for she shall eat them for want of all things secretly in the siege and straitness, wherewith thine enemy shall distress thee in thy gates." (Deu 28:53-57 KJV)
Philip
>>>You might run Galatians 3:29 past them. Some of them have been known to go ballistic over that.<<<
LOL! Some others they are too fond of are Mat 3:9, Mat 23:15, Mat 23:33, John 8:44, and Gal 3:16; and from the Old Testament: Isa 42:1 and Isa 65:9.
Philip
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