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Sola Scriptura – An Unbiblical Recipe for Confusion
Tim Staples' Blog ^ | January 18, 2014 | Tim Staples

Posted on 01/25/2014 6:51:38 AM PST by GonzoII

Sola Scriptura – An Unbiblical Recipe for Confusion

Sola scriptura was the central doctrine and foundation for all I believed when I was Protestant. On a popular level, it simply meant, “If a teaching isn’t explicit in the Bible, then we don’t accept it as doctrine!” And it seemed so simple. And yet, I do not recall ever hearing a detailed teaching explicating it. It was always a given. Unchallenged. Diving deeper into its meaning, especially when I was challenged to defend my Protestant faith against Catholicism, I found there to be no book specifically on the topic and no uniform understanding of this teaching among Protestant pastors.

Once I got past the superficial, I had to try to answer real questions like, what role does tradition play? How explicit does a doctrine have to be in Scripture before it can be called doctrine? How many times does it have to be mentioned in Scripture before it would be dogmatic? Where does Scripture tell us what is absolutely essential for us to believe as Christians? How do we know what the canon of Scripture is using the principle of sola scriptura? Who is authorized to write Scripture in the first place? When was the canon closed? Or, the best question of all: where is sola scriptura taught in the Bible? These questions and more were left virtually unanswered or left to the varying opinions of various Bible teachers.

The Protestant Response

In answer to this last question, “Where is sola scriptura taught in the Bible?” most Protestants will immediately respond as I did, by simply citing II Tm. 3:16:

All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

“How can it get any plainer than that? Doesn’t that say the Bible is all we need?” Question answered.

The fact is: II Timothy 3—or any other text of Scripture—does not even hint at sola scriptura. It says Scripture is inspired and necessary to equip “the man of God,” but never does it say Scripture alone is all anyone needs. We’ll come back to this text in particular later. But in my experience as a Protestant, it was my attempt to defend this bedrock teaching of Protestantism that led me to conclude: sola scriptura is 1) unreasonable 2) unbiblical and 3) unworkable.

Sola Scriptura is Unreasonable

When defending sola scriptura, the Protestant will predictably appeal to his sole authority—Scripture. This is a textbook example of the logical fallacy of circular reasoning which betrays an essential problem with the doctrine itself. One cannot prove the inspiration of a text from the text itself. The Book of Mormon, the Hindu Vedas, writings of Mary Baker Eddy, the Koran, and other books claim inspiration. This does not make them inspired. One must prove the point outside of the text itself to avoid the fallacy of circular reasoning.

Thus, the question remains: how do we know the various books of the Bible are inspired and therefore canonical? And remember: the Protestant must use the principle of sola scriptura in the process.

II Tim. 3:16 is not a valid response to the question. The problems are manifold. Beyond the fact of circular reasoning, for example, I would point out the fact that this verse says all Scripture is inspired tells us nothing of what the canon consists. Just recently, I was speaking with a Protestant inquirer about this issue and he saw my point. He then said words to the effect of, “I believe the Holy Spirit guides us into all truth as Jesus said in Jn. 16:13. The Holy Spirit guided the early Christians and helped them to gather the canon of Scripture and declare it to be the inspired word of God. God would not leave us without his word to guide us.”

That answer is much more Catholic than Protestant! Yes, Jn. 16:13 does say the Spirit will lead the apostles—and by allusion, the Church—into all truth. But this verse has nothing to say about sola scriptura. Nor does it say a word about the nature or number of books in the canon. Catholics certainly agree that the Holy Spirit guided the early Christians to canonize the Scriptures because the Catholic Church teaches that there is an authoritative Church guided by the Holy Spirit. The obvious problem is my Protestant friend did not use sola scriptura as his guiding principle to arrive at his conclusion. How does, for example, Jn. 16:13 tell us that Hebrews was written by an apostolic writer and that it is inspired of God? We would ultimately have to rely on the infallibility of whoever “the Holy Spirit” is guiding to canonize the Bible so that they could not mishear what the Spirit was saying about which books of the Bible are truly inspired.

The fact is, the Bible does not and cannot give us the answer to this question about the canon. It is an historical fact that the Church used Sacred Tradition outside of Scripture for her criterion for the canon. And the early Christians, many of whom disagreed on the issue of the canon, also needed the Church in council to give an authoritative decree on the whole matter.

In order to put this argument of my friend into perspective, can you imagine if a Catholic made a similar claim to demonstrate, say, Mary to be the Mother of God? “We believe the Holy Spirit guides us into all truth and guided the early Christians to declare this truth.” Would the Protestant respond with a hearty, amen? I think not! I can almost hear the response. “Show me in the Bible where Mary is the Mother of God! I don’t want to hear about God guiding the Church!” Wouldn’t the same question remain for the Protestant concerning the canon? “Show me in the Bible where the canon of Scripture is, what the criterion for the canon is, who can and cannot write Scripture, etc.”

Will the Circle be Unbroken?

The Protestant response at this point is often an attempt to use the same argument against the Catholic. “How do you know the Scriptures are inspired? Your reasoning is just as circular because you say the Church is infallible because the inspired Scriptures say so and then say the Scriptures are inspired and infallible because the Church says so!”

The Catholic Church’s position on inspiration is not circular. We do not say “the Church is infallible because the inspired Scriptures say so.” The Church was established historically and functioned as the infallible spokesperson for the Lord decades before the New Testament was written. The Church is infallible because Jesus said so. However, it is true that we know the Scriptures to be inspired because the Church has told us so. That is also an historical fact. However, this is not circular reasoning. When the Catholic approaches Scripture, he or she begins with the Bible as an historical document, not as inspired. As any reputable historian will tell you, the New Testament is the most accurate and verifiable historical document in all of ancient history. To deny the substance of the historical documents recorded therein would be absurd. However, one cannot deduce from this that they are inspired. There are many accurate historical documents that are not inspired. However, the Scriptures do give us accurate historical information whether one holds to their inspiration or not. Further, this testimony of the Bible is backed up by hundreds of works by early Christians and non-Christian writers like Suetonius, Tacitus, Pliny the Younger, Josephus, and more. It is on this basis that we can say it is an historical fact that Jesus lived, died and was reported to be resurrected from the dead by over 500 eyewitnesses. Many of these eyewitnesses went to their deaths testifying to the veracity of the Christ-event (see Lk. 1:1-4, Jn. 21:18-19, 24-25, Acts 1:1-11, I Cr. 15:1-8).

Now, what do we find when we examine the historical record? Jesus Christ—as a matter of history–established a Church, not a book, to be the foundation of the Christian Faith (see Mt. 16:15-18; 18:15-18. Cf. Eph. 2:20; 3:10,20-21; 4:11-15; I Tm. 3:15; Hb. 13:7,17, etc.). He said of his Church “He who hears you hears me and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me” (Lk. 10:16). The many books that comprise what we call the Bible never tell us crucial truths such as the fact that they are inspired, who can and cannot be the human authors of them, who authored them at all, or, as I said before, what the canon of Scripture is in the first place. And this is just to name a few examples. What is very clear historically is that Jesus established a kingdom with a hierarchy and authority to speak for him (see Lk. 20:29-32, Mt. 10:40, 28:18-20). It was members of this Kingdom—the Church—that would write the Scripture, preserve its many texts and eventually canonize it. The Scriptures cannot write or canonize themselves. To put it simply, reason clearly rejects sola scriptura as a self-refuting principle because one cannot determine what the “scriptura” is using the principle of sola scriptura.

Sola Scriptura is Unbiblical

Let us now consider the most common text used by Protestants to “prove” sola scriptura, II Tm. 3:16, which I quoted above:

All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

The problem with using this text as such is threefold: 1. Strictly speaking, it does not speak of the New Testament at all. 2. It does not claim Scripture to be the sole rule of faith for Christians. 3. The Bible teaches oral Tradition to be on a par with and just as necessary as the written Tradition, or Scripture.

1. What’s Old is Not New

Let us examine the context of the passage by reading the two preceding verses:

But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it and how from childhood (italics added) you have been acquainted with the sacred writings which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.

In context, this passage does not refer to the New Testament at all. None of the New Testament books had been written when St. Timothy was a child! To claim this verse in order to authenticate a book, say, the book of Revelation, when it had most likely not even been written yet, is more than a stretch. That is going far beyond what the text actually claims.

2. The Trouble With Sola

As a Protestant, I was guilty of seeing more than one sola in Scripture that simply did not exist. The Bible clearly teaches justification by faith. And we Catholics believe it. However, we do not believe in justification by faith alone because, among many other reasons, the Bible says, we are “justified by works and not by faith alone” (James 2:24, emphasis added). Analogously, when the Bible says Scripture is inspired and profitable for “the man of God,” to be “equipped for every good work,” we Catholics believe it. However, the text of II Tim. 3:16 never says Scripture alone. There is no sola to be found here either! Even if we granted II Tm. 3:16 was talking about all of Scripture, it never claims Scripture to be the sole rule of faith. A rule of faith, to be sure! But not the sole rule of faith.

James 1:4 illustrates clearly the problem with Protestant exegesis of II Tim. 3:16:

And let steadfastness (patience) have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

If we apply the same principle of exegesis to this text that the Protestant does to II Tm. 3:16 we would have to say that all we need is patience to be perfected. We don’t need faith, hope, charity, the Church, baptism, etc.

Of course, any Christian would immediately say this is absurd. And of course it is. But James’ emphasis on the central importance of patience is even stronger than St. Paul’s emphasis on Scripture. The key is to see that there is not a sola to be found in either text. Sola patientia would be just as much an error as is sola scriptura.

3. Traditions of Men Vs. The Tradition of God

Not only is the Bible silent when it comes to sola scriptura, but Scripture is remarkably plain in teaching oral Tradition to be just as much the word of God as is Scripture. In what most scholars believe was the first book written in the New Testament, St. Paul said:

And we also thank God… that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God… (I Thess. 2:13)

According to St. Paul, the spoken word from the apostles was just as much the word of God as was the later written word. Further, when St. Paul wrote II Thessalonians, he urged the Christians there to receive both the oral and written Traditions as equally authoritative. This would be expected because both are referred to as the word of God.

So, then, brethren stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter (II Thess. 2:15).

A common problem among Protestants at this point is a matter of semantics. “Tradition” is often viewed in a negative light because of Jesus’ condemnation of “the tradition of men” in Mark 7:8.

You leave the commandment of God, and hold fast the tradition of men.

Notice, this verse makes very clear what kind of tradition it was that Jesus condemned. Jesus condemned the tradition of men, not all tradition. And obviously so; otherwise, you would have Jesus contradicting St. Paul. In fact, you would have Jesus contradicting himself in Matthew 23:2-3:

The scribes and Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat; so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice.

Jesus both refers to an oral tradition—the chair of Moses—and commands the apostles to believe and obey it.

Sola Scriptura is Unworkable

When it comes to the tradition of Protestantism—sola scriptura—the silence of the text of Scripture is deafening. When it comes to the true authority of Scripture and Tradition, the Scriptures are clear. And when it comes to the teaching and governing authority of the Church, the biblical text is equally as clear:

If your brother sins against you go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone … But if he does not listen, take one or two others with you … If he refuses to listen … tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. (Mt. 18:15-17)

According to Scripture, the Church—not the Bible alone—is the final court of appeal for the people of God in matters of faith and discipline. But isn’t it also telling that since the Reformation of just ca. 480 years ago—a reformation claiming sola scriptura as its formal principle—there are now over 33,000 denominations that have derived from it?

For 1,500 years, Christianity saw just a few enduring schisms (the Monophysites, Nestorians, the Orthodox, and a very few others). Now in just 480 years we have this? I hardly think that when Jesus prophesied there would be “one shepherd and one fold” in Jn. 10:16, this is what he had in mind. It seems quite clear to me that not only is sola scriptura unreasonable and unbiblical, but it is unworkable. The proof is in the puddin’!

But Didn’t Jesus Himself Believe Sola Scriptura?

When the Devil tempted Jesus three times in Matthew 4, Jesus always responded with Scripture. In fact, with the second of the three temptations the Devil himself began with Scripture. As an aside, I would have to say that was not very smart of the Devil. If you are going to tempt the Word of God, do you really think you are going to outsmart the Word of God with the word of God?

At any rate, in Matt. 4:6, the Devil begins, “If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down [from the pinnacle of the Temple]; for it is written, ‘He will give his angels charge of you’ and ‘On their hands they will bear you up, lest you strike your foot against a stone’ (quoting Psalm 91:11-12).”

Jesus then responded with Scripture in Matt. 4:7, “Again it is written, ‘You shall not tempt the Lord your God’ (quoting Deut. 6:16).” Doesn’t this prove Jesus believed in sola scriptura?

Absolutely not!

Just because someone quotes Scripture as an authority, this does not mean he believes in sola scriptura. The Catholic Church quotes Scripture all the time and teaches that Scripture is the inerrant word of God. But what does that prove?

The key here is to understand Jesus not only quoted Scripture as authoritative, but he also referred to Tradition as authoritative in texts like Luke 16:22 (ever read anywhere of “Abraham’s Bosom” in the Old Testament? No, this was Jewish Tradition), Matt. 2:23 (Jesus refers to an Oral Tradition “spoken by the prophets” that is nowhere to be found in the Old Testament), and Matt. 23:1-3, which we saw above, where he speaks of the Tradition of “the chair of Moses”).

He also refers to his own authority when he says over and over, “You have heard it said,” and he often quotes Scripture immediately thereafter, but then he says, “But I say unto you…” He then either introduces new revelation or gives an authoritative interpretation of a biblical text (see Matt. 5:21-48) or, sometimes he simply gives an authoritative interpretation of what Scripture truly means, such as in Matt: 5:10-20.

So did Jesus Christ believe in sola scriptura? By no means! Neither should his Church. And while the Church cannot give new revelation as this ended with the death of the last apostolic man (and we know that because of, you guessed it, Tradition in order to understand texts of Scripture like Jude 3), the Church employs Scripture and Tradition just like her Lord, using her teaching authority she receives from her Lord (Matt. 18:15-18).

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TOPICS: Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: bible; catholic; scripture; solascriptura; timstaples
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To: GonzoII

Question answered. You don’t like answer? So be it.


201 posted on 01/26/2014 12:37:19 PM PST by count-your-change (you don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough)
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas
Just what are those traditions Paul was referring to that he handed down that we are to keep that were not included in Scripture?

How do you know?

How do you know they’re from the apostles, Paul in particular?

How do you know they’ve been passed down faithfully?

What is your source for verifying all of the above?

Please provide the sources for verification purposes.

202 posted on 01/26/2014 12:42:49 PM PST by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith....)
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas
Where is this book?

“Be a sinner and sin strongly, but more strongly have faith and rejoice in Christ.” —Martin Luther

I didn't know Luther preached one sentence sermons. I'm sure that you take Paul the same way? Thought not, but as a Catholic I guess you might.

“If he will not listen to the church, treat him as a pagan or tax collector.” —Jesus

Jesus, acknowledging that the Rome claim of 'Church' is false. Where did Jesus add issues requiring belief to be saved that are not recorded in scripture? The Word of God is a sure defense in issues of church discipline, unless you are Catholic.

203 posted on 01/26/2014 12:54:54 PM PST by xone
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To: xone; St_Thomas_Aquinas

Of course, that quote by Jesus from Matthew 18 is also taken out of context.

It was part of His discourse on dealing with an unrepentant brother, not to give any church absolute, totalitarian authority over every believer on the planet.

However, since Catholics like to quote that so much as non_Catholics, one has to wonder why they don’t actually enforce that within their own ranks. Between the liberal pro-abortion and pro-homosexual marriage politicians and the homosexual minor molesting clergy, they have plenty of opportunity to practice what they preach.

Instead they are too busy pointing out other’s shortcomings.

Jesus also had something to say about motes and beams.

St Thomas, you are by far and away one of the most courteous and reasonable Catholic posters and I appreciate that we can dialog without it degenerating into a spitting contest. However, it appears that you have a blind spot, as do many Catholics, to the shortcomings of your denomination.

I’ve never seen a group of people so reluctant to admit error by the leadership within their church.

IMO, ANY church is fair game. Find me a non-Catholic church that is off in morals or teaching and I will point that out too, and I have. If you’ve ever seen my posts regarding the charismatic movement, you’ll know that that is true.


204 posted on 01/26/2014 1:10:40 PM PST by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith....)
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To: metmom

-— It was part of His discourse on dealing with an unrepentant brother, not to give any church absolute, totalitarian authority over every believer on the planet -—

Many conclusions follow from Jesus’ statement with logical necessity.

First, Jesus could have issued the command, “take it to Me.” But He chose to say, “take it to the church.” So this church must discipline, adjudicate and teach with His Authority.

Secondly, the church could only be His church, the Church that Christ founded.

This church must be visible, since one cannot take a dispute to an invisible church.

Fourth, this church cannot be any gathering of believers, since for a church to authoritatively settle disputes regarding sins amongst Christians, it must possess a unified, non-contradictory body of doctrine. Otherwise, disputes would never be settled, rendering Christ’s command void.

So we know that in Christ’s lifetime, His visible Church, possessing a non-contradictory body of doctrines, existed and taught with Christ’s Authority, apart from Him.

We must presume that this visible Church still exists, since history bears this out, and there is no evidence in Scripture that the gates of hell would prevail against it.

Finally, while the Church teaches with the authority of Christ, it does not possess the Mind of Christ, but it infallibly interprets divine revelation.


205 posted on 01/26/2014 1:31:05 PM PST by St_Thomas_Aquinas ( Isaiah 22:22, Matthew 16:19, Revelation 3:7)
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To: xone
I didn't know Luther preached one sentence sermons. I'm sure that you take Paul the same way? Thought not, but as a Catholic I guess you might.

Every time they treat Luther as if we held him as a pope by invoking some obscure quote or support for something of Rome, or as if he was a maverick in doubting or rejecting apocryphal books, it reveal their desperation or carelessness in parroting polemics.

Luther actually said enough things that we disagree with to exclude him being our pope, while RCs are too willing to be like atheists who invoke such things as the Lord commending the unjust steward or calling a seeker a dog, or Paul saying the Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies, (Titus 1:12) in order to misconstrue what was meant. And Luther engaged in much hyperbole and highly polemical language. Not that i agree with it all.

I have recommended that they search Swan's collection for such quotes, so at least they would understand the polemical context of such. But that would leave them more desperate.

206 posted on 01/26/2014 2:08:44 PM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas
it must possess a unified, non-contradictory body of doctrine. Otherwise, disputes would never be settled, rendering Christ’s command void.

Christ's command is in scripture. When scripture isn't taken as the inerrant Word of God, anything is possible. Like doctrine and dogma without scriptural warrant. BUT, when convenient, look at the red letters, wait, that doesn't work for Jonah or Noah. Nevermind.

We must presume that this visible Church still exists, since history bears this out, and there is no evidence in Scripture that the gates of hell would prevail against it.

It did exist, and now exists as the invisible Church of believers in Christ. An examination of the church fathers vs current Catholic practice shows the drift. Trent's proclamation clearly is against Paul's teaching re: justification. Is Christ divided? No.

Finally, while the Church teaches with the authority of Christ, it does not possess the Mind of Christ, but it infallibly interprets divine revelation.

It doesn't even correctly interpret the books it claims to have written. It engages in 'makeadoctrine' or in the case of its Mariology 'makeadogma'. With the Catholic focus on Mary in general, it's amazing it took 1800 odd years to get around to her dogma. Pity the Catholics that didn't make it to heaven because they didn't follow a necessary dogma for salvation because it came after their deaths. There's always purgatory. Catholics assert they are the 'Church', fruit-wise says something different.

207 posted on 01/26/2014 2:11:09 PM PST by xone
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To: Kansas58; Salvation
Thank you both for the references on the Carroll family. I know of their history well as I studied all the founders and their faith a number of years ago. However a few of the sources were new to me. Thanks. One of my favorite quotes from Charles Carroll: “Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure,… are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments.”  American History Resources
208 posted on 01/26/2014 2:11:32 PM PST by redleghunter
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To: daniel1212
Luther actually said enough things that we disagree with to exclude him being our pope

Luther's biggest problem was re-asserting Christ's role as the Head of the Church. That and the requirement to use scripture in the formulation of doctrine.

209 posted on 01/26/2014 2:16:29 PM PST by xone
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To: redleghunter
**“Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure,… are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments.”  American History Resources ** Excellent!
210 posted on 01/26/2014 2:51:13 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Kansas58

That’s a “wow” source. Thanks.


211 posted on 01/26/2014 2:56:23 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Kansas58; PetroniusMaximus

““Peter, you are rock, and upon this rock I will build my Church””

Hey Kansas, are you deliberately misquoting what Jesus said in Matthew 16:18 to make your point?

Peter means ‘stone’ (think pebble). Jesus Himself is the Rock on which He built/is building His church.

And lest someone say I am quoting below from a ‘Protestant’ Bible, this is from the 1899 Douay-Rheims Bible...

Matthew 16:13-19 DRB “And Jesus came into the quarters of Cesarea Philippi: and he asked his disciples, saying: Whom do men say that the Son of man is? (14) But they said: Some John the Baptist, and other some Elias, and others Jeremias, or one of the prophets. (15) Jesus saith to them: But whom do you say that I am? (16) Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. (17) And Jesus answering said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. (18) And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (19) And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.”


212 posted on 01/26/2014 3:15:50 PM PST by GGpaX4DumpedTea (I am a Tea Party descendant...steeped in the Constitutional Republic given to us by the Founders)
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To: GGpaX4DumpedTea; Kansas58
You may be interested in this.

Peter = rock?

Matthew 16:18 - http://bible.cc/matthew/16-18.htm

Jesus said that Peter was *petros*(masculine) and that on this *petra*(feminine) He would build His church.

Greek: 4074 Pétros (a masculine noun) – properly, a stone (pebble), such as a small rock found along a pathway. 4074 /Pétros (”small stone”) then stands in contrast to 4073 /pétra (”cliff, boulder,” Abbott-Smith).

“4074 (Pétros) is an isolated rock and 4073 (pétra) is a cliff” (TDNT, 3, 100). “4074 (Pétros) always means a stone . . . such as a man may throw, . . . versus 4073 (pétra), a projecting rock, cliff” (S. Zodhiates, Dict).

4073 pétra (a feminine noun) – “a mass of connected rock,” which is distinct from 4074 (Pétros) which is “a detached stone or boulder” (A-S). 4073 (pétra) is a “solid or native rock, rising up through the earth” (Souter) – a huge mass of rock (a boulder), such as a projecting cliff.

4073 (petra) is “a projecting rock, cliff (feminine noun) . . . 4074 (petros, the masculine form) however is a stone . . . such as a man might throw” (S. Zodhiates, Dict).

It’s also a strange way to word the sentence that He would call Peter a rock and say that on this I will build my church instead of *on you* as would be grammatically correct in talking to a person.

There is no support from the original Greek that Peter was to be the rock on which Jesus said he would build His church. The nouns are not the same, one being masculine and the other being feminine. They denote different objects.

213 posted on 01/26/2014 3:25:54 PM PST by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith....)
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To: metmom

Thanks, ‘mom’...I like the way to think...and post :)


214 posted on 01/26/2014 3:33:22 PM PST by GGpaX4DumpedTea (I am a Tea Party descendant...steeped in the Constitutional Republic given to us by the Founders)
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To: GGpaX4DumpedTea

Welcome....


215 posted on 01/26/2014 3:34:51 PM PST by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith....)
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To: GGpaX4DumpedTea

It’s interesting. For all Catholics rail about *poor* translations, here they build an entire theology on a (drum roll) poor translation.

The Greek simply does not support their doctrine. In the English the distinction is lost and here they are, building their doctrine on it.


216 posted on 01/26/2014 3:38:49 PM PST by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith....)
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To: Kansas58; PetroniusMaximus; GonzoII

In Matthew 16:18 there is the Greek play upon the words, “thou art Peter [Greek, “petros” — literally ‘a little rock]’, and upon this rock [Greek, “Petra”] I will build my church.” He does not promise to build His church upon Peter, but upon Himself, as Peter is careful to tell us in 1 Peter 2:4-9. See Peter’s words in this passage, quoted below, again from Douay-Rheims…

1 Peter 2:4-9 DRB “Unto whom coming, as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men but chosen and made honourable by God: (5) Be you also as living stones built up, a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. (6) Wherefore it is said in the scripture: Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious. And he that shall believe in him shall not be confounded. (7) To you therefore that believe, he is honour: but to them that believe not, the stone which the builders rejected, the same is made the head of the corner: (8) And a stone of stumbling and a rock of scandal, to them who stumble at the word, neither do believe, whereunto also they are set. (9) But you are a chosen generation, a kingly priesthood, a holy nation, a purchased people: that you may declare his virtues, who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light”

It is obvious from this that Peter himself testifies to the fact that Jesus, is Himself the the Chief Corner Stone on which the ecclesia, the called ones, as living stones are built up, a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, etc. It is also obvious that Peter considers himself just to be one of the living stones built up on the Chief Corner Stone, Jesus, the Christ, the Son of the Living God.


217 posted on 01/26/2014 4:08:57 PM PST by GGpaX4DumpedTea (I am a Tea Party descendant...steeped in the Constitutional Republic given to us by the Founders)
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas; metmom; CynicalBear; redleghunter
Many conclusions follow from Jesus’ statement with logical necessity.

Your extrapolation effort to establish Rome as being the OTC is irretrievably fallacious.

He chose to say, “take it to the church.” So this church must discipline, adjudicate and teach with His Authority. Indeed, but which does not translate into a perpetual infallible magisterium, which Rome infallibly decrees she is, and as Scripture nowhere promises nor requires this, no matter how much effort RCs try to extrapolate it from such texts as Mt. 18, then a church which claims this cannot be the OTC, and in fact it is cultic.

In order argue otherwise you must establish from Scripture - that being the transcendent supreme material standard for Truth, as if abundantly evidenced , that such a magisterium was necessary for assurance of Truth, and to recognize and establish both writings as well as men of God as being so, thus those it rejects must be rejected.

Let me know when you want to try.

"Whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning," (Rm. 15:4) and Mt. 18:15-18 follows the OT model of judgment, in which Moses took "wise men, and understanding," as judges, and charged them as judges, "Hear the causes between your brethren, and judge righteously between every man and his brother, and the stranger that is with him." (see Deuteronomy 1:13-18) Matter too hard for them went to the supreme court if you will, with dissent from it being a capital crime. (Dt. 17:8-13) And it also was mandated that the king be given a copy of the Law to live and judge by. (Dt. 18:18.19)

And thus we see apostolic instruction for the local church to choose wise men from among themselves to judge temporal matters, (1Cor. 6:1-6) and wise men full of the Holy Spirit as deacons, (Acts 6:3) and the ecumenical council for larger issues. However, none of these required or inferred perpetual assured (conditional) infallibility of office, which Rome claims. And the manner in which God preserved Truth was to often raise up men from without the magisterium ("prophets, wise men, and scribes:" Mt. 23:34) to reprove it. And thus the church began in dissent from the Scribes and Pharisees, who likewise presumed of themselves a veracity above that which Scripture afforded them, while the church began upon Scriptural

218 posted on 01/26/2014 5:46:11 PM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: xone
Luther's biggest problem was re-asserting Christ's role as the Head of the Church. That and the requirement to use scripture in the formulation of doctrine.

Yes because that is Rome's problem. Actually, the second is not a problem because she does not require actual scriptural warrant for her doctrines, as she yourself as the supreme authority, and thus she Christ cannot be the head of her church.

219 posted on 01/26/2014 5:48:02 PM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: xone
Luther's biggest problem was re-asserting Christ's role as the Head of the Church. That and the requirement to use scripture in the formulation of doctrine.

Yes because that is Rome's problem. Actually, the second is not a problem because she does not require actual scriptural warrant for her doctrines, as she herself is the supreme authority, and thus she Christ cannot be the head of her church.

220 posted on 01/26/2014 5:48:45 PM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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