Posted on 01/23/2014 9:29:40 PM PST by NKP_Vet
1. Best One-Sentence Summary: I am convinced that the Catholic Church conforms much more closely to all of the biblical data, offers the only coherent view of the history of Christianity (i.e., Christian, apostolic Tradition), and possesses the most profound and sublime Christian morality, spirituality, social ethic, and philosophy.
2. Alternate: I am a Catholic because I sincerely believe, by virtue of much cumulative evidence, that Catholicism is true, and that the Catholic Church is the visible Church divinely-established by our Lord Jesus, against which the gates of hell cannot and will not prevail (Mt 16:18), thereby possessing an authority to which I feel bound in Christian duty to submit.
3. 2nd Alternate: I left Protestantism because it was seriously deficient in its interpretation of the Bible (e.g., "faith alone" and many other "Catholic" doctrines - see evidences below), inconsistently selective in its espousal of various Catholic Traditions (e.g., the Canon of the Bible), inadequate in its ecclesiology, lacking a sensible view of Christian history (e.g., "Scripture alone"), compromised morally (e.g., contraception, divorce), and unbiblically schismatic, anarchical, and relativistic. I don't therefore believe that Protestantism is all bad (not by a long shot), but these are some of the major deficiencies I eventually saw as fatal to the "theory" of Protestantism, over against Catholicism. All Catholics must regard baptized, Nicene, Chalcedonian Protestants as Christians.
4. Catholicism isn't formally divided and sectarian (Jn 17:20-23; Rom 16:17; 1 Cor 1:10-13).
5. Catholic unity makes Christianity and Jesus more believable to the world (Jn 17:23).
6. Catholicism, because of its unified, complete, fully supernatural Christian vision, mitigates against secularization and humanism.
7. Catholicism avoids an unbiblical individualism which undermines Christian community (e.g., 1 Cor 12:25-26).
8. Catholicism avoids theological relativism, by means of dogmatic certainty and the centrality of the papacy.
(Excerpt) Read more at ourcatholicfaith.org ...
You admitted I was right. You in no way “exposed [my] lies” because I didn’t post any.
“I was astonished anyone would write such a thing. Christ sent ‘THE CATHOLIC CHURCH”?”
Sure did.
“Only a complete novice would believe that.”
No, actually I’m an experienced Church historian. I haven’t been a novice in at least two decades. A novice, however, would post as you do.
“And I qualified my post with 10 verses of scripture that demonstrated the Church of the Firstborn in heaven has nothing in common with the Catholic “Church.””
Your qualification - which is erroneous - in no way changes the fact that you said I was right and I thanked your for admitting it. I have no idea why that bothers you. If it bothers you to be thanked for stating what is true, then isn’t that a problem that is all your own?
“That was it?”
Yes. Why does it bother you to be thanked for pointing out a truth which you yourself agreed with?
“I referenced scripture that completely contradicts what you wrote earlier—that the Catholic “Church” was Sent by Christ to bring forgiveness—and you had no rebuttal?”
You in no way referenced any scripture that contradicted anything I said. What verses you posted in no way even addressed the issue. No rebuttal was needed for you never actually addressed the issue.
Yes, thanks, I appreciate that. God works in mysterious ways...they could all repent and become Constitutional Conservatives in the mold of our Founders... :)
ROFL!!! Find the word “church” or anything that actually translates “church” in the New Testament. Ecclesia won’t do it btw.
“Do you accept that sincere, intellectually curious and honest people can arrive at a different conclusion? Do you believe that anyone who leaves the Roman Catholic Church after careful consideration, much prayer, intense study of Scripture and history can also be “sincere”, “intellectually curious” and “honest””.
That’s a hard question to answer. Since all the Church Fathers were Catholic and everyone was Catholic for the first 1,500 years after Christ died I don’t know what new material anyone could have came up with to “prove” to them all the Church fathers were wrong which would mean Catholicism was wrong.
One of the greatest theologians of the 19th Century, if not the greatest, put it this way.
“To be deep in history is to cease to be protestant”.
~ John Henry Newman, Roman Catholic Cardinal
Former Angelican
Kind of find it hard to believe any person that has ever left Catholicism for one of the protestant faiths knew more about the Bible and Christianity than John Henry Newman.
Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. Pray.
I'd suggest you review some of the posts from other Catholics and perhaps silently correct them on their error. I can assure you that we Protestants have no problem in telling other Protestants they're crazy. But you may be a bit surprise by their reactions.
The Catholic Church's catechism states the following:
This is what the Quran states:
Sorry but this catechism just flat out wrong even if it was written by an infallible council.
And, I mean this kindly, no matter how much you would like it to be so, repeating one line of scripture over and over believing that is what the Catholic Church is all about doesn't make it so. I would seriously suggest reading some background history and look closely at their doctrine. What they purport and what they believe are two different things.
“ROFL!!! Find the word “church” or anything that actually translates “church” in the New Testament. Ecclesia won’t do it btw.”
The word “Church” comes from this word:
http://www.teknia.com/greek-dictionary/kyriakos
The word Trinity appears nowhere in scripture. That doesn’t make the Trinity any less real.
Bookmarking
It is vague and wishy-washy, and not written by an infallible council.
And, I mean this kindly, no matter how much you would like it to be so, repeating one line of scripture over and over believing that is what the Catholic Church is all about doesn't make it so.
And in some cases (such as this) one line of scripture suffices. That we are saved by grace through faith is summed up nicely by Ephesians 2:8.
Why not answer mine?
Evasion is not an answer nor are asking me questions.
God.
You defended them by asking rhetorically if there were no sinners in church... if you think pelosi, biden and cuomo are just now lowly sinners, I can now see why they get away with their politics and their religion with catholics... And claim both..maybe because there are a lot more cafeteria cathoics out there than just pelosi, biden and cuomo and they represent far more members than most would admit.
>>>Your qualification - which is erroneous - in no way changes the fact that you said I was right and I thanked your for admitting it. I have no idea why that bothers you. If it bothers you to be thanked for stating what is true, then isn’t that a problem that is all your own?<<<
Vlad, are you saying the 10 verses I quoted were not references to the Church? If so, that is the most wierd of all the wierd things you have said. What “bible” are you reading?
Philip
That’s your reply? Seriously? Let’s take a look at that word.
Kuriakos - Definition: of the Lord, special to the Lord.
And it’s used twice in the New Testament.
1 Corinthians 11:20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's (kyriakon) supper.
Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's (kyriakē) day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
And that’s your justification for using the word “church” in place of ekklesia in scripture? Did I not say that the RCC has corrupted the meaning of scripture? Thank you for proving my point.
To claim that we 'worship her or attribute to her the attributes of God' is patently untrue.Well that is very good, and very Christian of you that you do not "attribute to her the attributes of God."The various haters here who make that false statement know full well that the claim is a baldfaced lie; hatred defaces them and allows the vile calumnies to spew forth. Pray for them, they need it.
Let's get personal here and "out" those "haters" and "baldfaced li(ars)" and who are responsible for those "false statement(s)" and exactly who spews "vile calumnies" as you describe in your heinous vitriolic accusations:
... through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation. For this is his will, that we obtain everything through Mary (1).”Who is it that "spewed" these baldfaced lies?
“O Virgin most holy, none abounds in the knowledge of God except through thee; none, O Mother of God, obtains salvation except through thee, none receives a gift from the throne of mercy except through thee. (2)
...it is also certain that you cannot find Jesus except with Mary and through Mary.(3)
God has committed to the Blessed Virgin Mary the treasury of all good things in order that everyone may know that through her are obtained every hope, every grace and all salvation. (4)
None, O Mother of God, obtains salvation except through thee (5)
The Catholic Church has always and with justice put all her hope and trust in the Mother of God (6)
(1) Pius IX (a pope in the 1800's)Now about this "mother of God" thing...let's tone it down a bit huh?(2) Leo XIII (another pope in the 1800's)
(3) St. Pius X (1900's)
(4) Pius IX (a pope in the 1800's)
(5) Leo XIII (this guy again)
(6) Leo XIII (you will recognize him)
Jesus was with God from the very beginning, so no way could Mary have birthed God.
Now Jesus, being fully God and fully man, needed a way to come into the world in human form.
Mary birthed Jesus in his man form not His God form.
So mother of Jesus, fine.
Mother of God, not so much.
As a disclaimer I will state that I have no problem with Catholics believing that you have to go through Mary to get to Jesus but please, don't try to get us Christians to follow all that extra-Biblical stuff.
And please stop dissing Christians for posting what your own church "Fathers" believe.
I hate to be the one to break this to you, but the Council of Nicaea did nothing more than CONFIRM what had ALREADY been in existence, the commonly held books, letters, epistles that made up our Bible were accepted and known by believers. I know it hurts, but Catholics did not teach mankind how to hunt, fish, or find God.
Apparently, Vlad doesn't believe these are references to the Church, the Lamb's Bride:
"Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God," (Rev 21:9-10)
"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant . . . " (Heb 12:22-24)
Philip
Well, here you go, coming on a RF thread and making sense and trying to be reasonable.
There’s one in every crowd.
>>>ROFL!!! Find the word “church” or anything that actually translates “church” in the New Testament. Ecclesia won’t do it btw.<<<
What Greek lexicon are you using? Mine say something like this:
ekklesia: that which is called out
or this,
ek-klay-see’-ah; a calling out, (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): — assembly, church.
Philip
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