Posted on 01/15/2014 7:05:50 AM PST by Laissez-faire capitalist
Satan, in the Garden of Eden, speaking to Eve (through the serpent) said in Genesis 3:1-5 that if Eve would stretch forth her hand and eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil that she would not die, but would become as gods knowing good and evil.
Satan essentially proffered the idea to Eve that:
1.) God wanted to keep something from her (as well as Adam) and 2.) that God had lied to her when He told her that she would die.
Essentially, Satan said to Eve that God wanted to keep His thumb on Adam and Eve, and had constructed a lie to guarantee this and thereby keep them from eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. As well, Satan also said that eating of this tree would get them out from under God's thumb by making them as gods knowing good and evil.
The fallacy in Satan's argument is that if God indeed wanted to keep His thumb on Adam and Eve all God would have to have done is never make a tree of knowledge of good and evil in the first place.
If Eve had retorted to the serpent that no tree made in the first place means no ability to get what the serpent said they could get -- and God need only to make no tree in the first place to keep this from happening. Thus Eve could then say to the serpent (Satan) that he was a liar and that there was another reason for this particular tree (albeit unknown to her at that time).
Having one god representing good and another fostering evil, combined with their retinue of angels and hobgoblins is not exactly a formula from which I can extract monotheism.
Sscondly, I wouldn’t expect that God, who exists beyond space and time, to be able to “lie” in the sense in which we understand lying. I also believe Genesis to be somewhat “metaphorical” for the understanding of those who lived during that time. Though it loses nothing on me, as I believe I see its truthfulness and its comportability with modern mathematics and science.
Oh...and I should qualify that I’m an OT believer.
Is your reading comprehension limited? Or are you the type who has to have the exact words in order to say say it says that?
Try this bit of explanation
Question: “Is Lucifer Satan? Does the fall of Lucifer describe Satan?”
Answer: There is no verse or passage in the Bible that says, “Lucifer is Satan,” but an examination of several passages reveals that Lucifer can be none other than Satan. The fall of Lucifer described in Isaiah 14:12 is likely the same that Jesus referred to in Luke 10:18: “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.” A similar fall is depicted in Ezekiel 28.
Isaiah 14:12-18 describes the fall from heaven of one called “Lucifer” in the King James Version and the “morning star, son of the dawn” in the NIV. Other Bible versions call him “Day Star,” “shining star,” and “the bright morning star.” These variations are due to differences of opinion about how to translate the Hebrew word helel. Regardless, the description of the one referred to shows us it can be none other than Satan. We know from Jesus’ own words in Luke 10 that Satan fell from heaven. So, when Isaiah refers to Lucifer or helel being cast down to earth (Isaiah 14:12), it can be none other than Satan. The reason for his fall is found in verses 13 and 14: “You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.’” This has always been Satan’s desire – to be God, and it is the very temptation he used in the Garden of Eden to get Eve to disobey God: “You shall be as God” (Genesis 3:5).
Perhaps reading some commentary (like Spurgeon) along side your Bible reading would give you extra understanding
I have several, actually. And I was just asking. I’m not clear on the passage you mentioned. Sorry.
Do you use any commentaries along with your Bible reading? And perhaps a concordance or two?
Any way here you go
Question: “Is Lucifer Satan? Does the fall of Lucifer describe Satan?”
Answer: There is no verse or passage in the Bible that says, “Lucifer is Satan,” but an examination of several passages reveals that Lucifer can be none other than Satan. The fall of Lucifer described in Isaiah 14:12 is likely the same that Jesus referred to in Luke 10:18: “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.” A similar fall is depicted in Ezekiel 28.
Isaiah 14:12-18 describes the fall from heaven of one called “Lucifer” in the King James Version and the “morning star, son of the dawn” in the NIV. Other Bible versions call him “Day Star,” “shining star,” and “the bright morning star.” These variations are due to differences of opinion about how to translate the Hebrew word helel. Regardless, the description of the one referred to shows us it can be none other than Satan. We know from Jesus’ own words in Luke 10 that Satan fell from heaven. So, when Isaiah refers to Lucifer or helel being cast down to earth (Isaiah 14:12), it can be none other than Satan. The reason for his fall is found in verses 13 and 14: “You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.’” This has always been Satan’s desire – to be God, and it is the very temptation he used in the Garden of Eden to get Eve to disobey God: “You shall be as God” (Genesis 3:5).
She could have but she hadn't experienced lies or deception before so that line of questioning could not have happen.
I don't believe that God broke the symmetry inherent in His creation of the universe to create legions of lesser "gods", which despite arguments for how this contributes to monotheism, I just cannot see it. Despite the plethora of reasons to believe in God, there is not a single scintilla of evidence for Satan's activities anywhere in the universe until human beings abstract the concept of evil from their own minds, leaving aside the concept of personal responsibility as opposed to "The devil made me do it". Good and evil are real, but it took human beings to able to distinguish the two.
Adam and Eve blew it. God knew they would. That’s why He sent His only begotten Son, Jesus. Believe on Him and you will be saved. Plain and simple.
Revelation 12 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
I think God decided to send His Son in response to the serpent's deception causing Adam and Eve to sin.
Genesis 3:14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
God put the tree in the garden to test humanity but he must have known what was going to happen so the more interesting question is ‘why did he put the tree there in the first place?’.
Indeed. I, too, know that there is something far, far deeper going on. It is said of Lucifer that he was created “full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty..”
Why so for Lucifer, but not Adam and Eve, who were created innocent?
Appeals to Numbers and Appeals to Authority, which you are making, are logically fallacious.
The pastoral setting, Job being a priest to his family, his wealth being in flocks, etc and the timing - Chaldeans being nomadic - point to the events preceding the event of Moses on Mount Sinai, not the actual time of its writing, which was after Genesis. Toss Job out, and toss out the first event where Satan appears.
Did Jesus walk away, or successfuly retort against Satan, when Satan said “If thou be the Son of God...”
Check and mate.
And yes, I know that we are who we are and Jesus is God, but they weren’t fallen, and easily could have said “Thus says the Lord God...” which is what I laid out in the OP and thereafter.
keep thinking that…
She was able to understand that God said one thing, and Satan another. No rocket science necessary to retort that Satan’s basic premise was faulty. And being innocent isn’t tantamount to her being a dolt, either, or lacking the ability to ferreting out Satan’s faulty premise.
The left has been twisting the meaning of words ever since their founder uttered those words.
No creation, no blowing it?
Or, just no creation of Lucifer?
Were either possible in your opinion? Just wondering.
I believe that a universe in which God knew Adam and Eve would blow it, but God stopped it through uncreating Lucifer or not creating him was possible and no more rigging of events than this universe is..
Actually, why create Lucifer, knowing he would fall and tempt Eve via the tree is more so than that...
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