The Ravenous Wolves of FreeRepublic

Today | Douglaskc

[Elsie]

;^)

[ravenwolf]

These are not things that concern me, but that doesn’t mean there aren’t churches out there that cover your concerns.

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I don,t see any thing wrong with your point, every one is a little different, some people can be happy just singing hymms, others can be happy praying.

And i believe that is scriptural, we can do it our own way.

But i don,t know if you read my first comment on this subject or not which may explain a few things, i believe we have gotten to far away from the thread.

To: DouglasKC

James 3
8
But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.

9
Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.

10
Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.>>>

James said no man can tame their tongue, that obviously includes Christians, and since it is even easier to put it in writing there is a lot of it.

Paul said some things that i do not think was proper about peter even though they were both Christian.

I guess i see it a little different, i see so many scribes and pharisees and so many who think of them selves as all knowing but i do not think of any one as animals.

And i do think these discussions are some what beneficial because we are more apt to tell it like we think it is rather than going along with something the Bible plainly said is wrong.

For instance Jesus tells us to pray to God in secret but you can hear many preachers praying for a quarter of a mile.

But would i go to a preacher and tell him that? No but i will say it here.

P.S
my comment was by invitation based on the thread but it seems to have been averted to me.

[DouglasKC]

Doctrine is important, but it's purpose is to teach us how to love God and how to love others. It IS?

Ultimately yes.

Mat 22:37 Jesus said to him, 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like it: 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

[xzins]

For instance Jesus tells us to pray to God in secret but you can hear many preachers praying for a quarter of a mile.

Even that needs to be put in context. Even Jesus and the Apostles prayed in public.

Jesus opposed someone making his personal prayers public for reasons of ego and self-glorification. Personal private prayers should be kept personal and private.

But, I can find examples of public prayer lickety split in the bible.

It really gets down to defining what things are appropriate for public prayer and what things should be private.

[ravenwolf]

I think your post pointed out some very good points about the early church. It was very much focused on relationships and how to get along better. Much of Paul’s writings and the lessons of Christ were how the church was to be different, to knit and grow together. Love between it’s members was to be the identifying mark.

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Yes but i also believe what Paul said had a lot to do with the value of the Church body.

Any one can go to Church but it was the members who run the ministry so not just any one could be a member.

But i see your point, if an elder is bad mouthing the Bishop or his wife that does not show love.

[ravenwolf]

My fault for referring to it when posting a reply on a different number.

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I was just confused, no problem, but have to go and begone today.

[tacticalogic]

Basically, it is a historical FACT that Jesus claimed to be God.

The historical fact is that words to that effect were written and subsequently translated. It's also a historical fact that this process of ideas => words => ideas is notoriously unreliable. That it is also recorded that Jesus prayed to God is evidence that the idea that Jesus is literally God Himself doesn't quite cover it. The totality of it is probably beyond our comprehension, much less our ability to reliably convey that idea with written word.

[Elsie]

I see the DO IT part; but where is the TEACH ‘em how to do it part?

[Elsie]

And I have to prepare for the nasty weather I’ve been threatened with tomorrow!

[gitmo]

Mat 22:37 Jesus said to him, 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'

Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.

Mat 22:39 And the second is like it: 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'

Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

I see the DO IT part; but where is the TEACH ‘em how to do it part?

Like much in the Christian life, this cannot be taught nor is it possible to accomplish. Only God can accomplish it. He said, "Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing."

He is the one who causes us to bear fruit. It's not a thing we learn or do, but it's something He does through us if we will abide in Him.

[Colofornian]

The poster of this thread has had some past associations with at least one of the following mentioned in post #7 of this thread that was posted last night:
Escape From The Iron-Fisted Worldwide Church of God Cult into The Power and Freedom of Jesus Christ!

And since many of these splinter groups from the Worldwide Church of God have been trying to "gobble up" remnants from that cult left and right, and have divided, and redivided, whose the real ravenous ones?

Could it be that that a certain poster has observed such tremendous in-fighting and inward accusation after accusation, and has simply "borrowed" Biblical language from others under this umbrella as to how they've attempted to fend off themselves from competing splinter groups.

Interesting possibility...but instead of guessing...or superimposing this view minus direct knowledge...I'll ask the thread jumpstarter:

Douglas, how often have you seen Matthew 7 -- and/or some of the verbiage you've used in this thread -- used by one splintered Worldwide Church of God leader contending versus another...?

(And we'll take a "crickets" response as indicative that perhaps I'm on to something here).

For those of you who want to see DIRECT confirmation of such infighting even within the offshoot splinter group Douglas has associated with, see post #215...and click on the link there.

[Colofornian]

Web posts that have been similar to this one which may have "inspired" this one:

* Martin G. Collins of TrueGospel.org: About
"This site is wholly owned and operated by Church of the Great God, Inc., a non-profit organization. The church, based in the Charlotte, North Carolina, area, is a Sabbath-keeping, non-Trinitarian organization..."
Collins preached: Sermon: Beware Of False Prophets: Their Motivation, Appearance, and Works

Collins does exactly what Douglas does in this thread...he cites Galatians 5 & Matthew 7...and even quotes a Mormon "prophet" at the end (Douglas has shown similar "affinity" with Mormons in other threads)...and Collins especially expands the meaning of "prophets" in Matthew 7...just like I mentioned how Douglas does this (see Post #151):

Collins: "The title prophet has a general application to ALL who have messages from God to man. The infamous label of false prophet also has a GENERAL application which includes: ministers, teachers, authorities, and the so-called scholars that do research (as the theologians do) and come up with their own human ideas. This sermon will analyze false prophets from a general perspective. I do not intend to get into details specifically of a false prophet, but the content of a false prophet. A MORE GENERAL APPROACH that includes all of these individuals: ministers, teachers, authorities, scholars, and theologians, whatever they may be called."

Hence, my earlier critique of Douglas applies to Collins as well:

Post #151 excerpt:
From Douglas' vanity: "Mat 7:15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. The word translated "false prophet" here is not referring to a Godly person who has a prophecy that fails. Instead it's referring to a person who pretends to be a Christian but in reality is not."

OK, about the only thing on the mark here by Douglas is yes, people can be "pseudo" (Greek for "false") in the image they project or living a pretense that is untrue. And "pseudo" is PART of the word here in Matthew 7:15.

Beyond that...ALL: Please beware of posters like this who try to change the plain meaning of words. If Douglas had wanted to talk more directly about true and false disciples, all he had to do was to slide down to Matthew 7:21-23 which discusses that topic directly. Instead he tries to fit Matt 7:21-23 as directly superimposed upon Matthew 7:15 -- false prophets.

The Greek word here is pseudoprophetes -- so it LITERALLY is "false prophets!" (Even though Douglas claims it somehow doesn't mean "false prophets")...

I mean, "Just, wow! Douglas! That's a NEW one I've yet to hear!"

To be a "pseudoprophet" IS to misrepresent God's Word...which is kind of ironic here when Douglas claims that the Greek word "prophetes" doesn't mean "prophets!"

********************************

ALL: Beware of all of these Armstrong Worldwide Church of God splinter groups!

[Colofornian]

And, as I'm beginning to sift out MANY digital articles written by the Armstrong splinter group leaders, at first glance, it appears they just can't get easily away from citing Matthew 7:15-20 as some kind of "weapon" vs. whoever they are contending against...

(Sometimes it's other "church of God" splinter groups; sometimes it's Christian groups)

Here's another example:

"Thus INDIVIDUAL MEMBERS are to bear fruit. And, beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them (Matt 7:15-20)."
Source: Unity: Which Church of God for You? [Note: While misusing the word 'unity' -- the author actually discusses more of the 'disunity' within 'Church of God' splinter groups!]

But note what this Herbert W. Armstrong splinter-writer has done in misusing Matthew 7: He did exactly what a Church of God North Carolina leader did in 2011 (cited in my last post) and what DouglasKC has done in THIS thread (cited at end of last post, #452...cf. post #151):

He/they expand(s) Jesus' specific condemnation of false prophets (Matthew 7:15) and applies it in this case to all "individual members."

Here, Jesus condemned specific people proclaiming to carry God's DIRECT message to others in Matthew 7:15, yet this writer expands it to ALL "individual members";
...another church of God writer (see post #452) expands it to: "...ministers, teachers, authorities, scholars, and theologians, whatever they may be called;"
...and DouglasKC expanded it to include all pretense Christians!

I think we see how this abuse of this verse is rather viral within Church of God groups!!!

[Elsie]

Like much in the Christian life, this cannot be taught nor is it possible to accomplish.

But... but... DOUG said...

[Elsie]

[CityCenter]

I think it’s fine to criticize when something warrants it. What I object to is some of the language that gets used. There are classier ways to voice a negative opinion than calling a woman a slut.

[Rebelbase]

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

[Colofornian]

BTW, God is a God of redemption...and was bringing back stray Armstrong disciples:

Here is the transformation of the portion of Armstrong's church that went Christian:
A Short History of Grace Communion International

They say:

Transformed by Christ

A Brief History of Grace Communion International In the early 1930s, Herbert Armstrong began a ministry that eventually became our denomination. He had many unusual doctrines. These he taught so enthusiastically that eventually more than 100,000 people attended weekly services. After he died in 1986, church leaders began to realize that many of his doctrines were not biblical. These doctrines were rejected, and the church is now in full agreement with the statement of faith of the National Association of Evangelicals. To reflect these doctrinal changes, in April 2009, the denomination changed its name to Grace Communion International. This name better reflects who we are and what we teach. For a press release, click here. For a letter of further explanation, click here.

Here is the story of how the church developed and how it changed. Transformation of a denomination

Jesus Christ changes lives. He can change an organization, too. This is the story of how the Lord changed our denomination from an unorthodox church on the fringes of Christianity, into an evangelical group that believes and teaches orthodox doctrines. The story involves both pain and joy. Thousands of members left the church. Income is less than one fourth of what it once was. But thousands of members are rejoicing with renewed zeal for their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

(You can go to above link to read a LOT more)

[Kevmo]

It’s also a historical fact that this process of ideas => words => ideas is notoriously unreliable.
***It is a historical fact that Julius Caesar said “veni vidi vici”. Historians don’t have trouble with these kinds of things, but persons with an ideological axe to grind certainly do have trouble with simple historicity. The same level of historicity goes for what Christ said before the sanhedrin and how they reacted. They properly condemned Him for blasphemy if He was not God Himself.

[Colofornian]

New thread up today on Herbert W. Armstrong's break-off splinter groups: You May Be Shocked at God’s answer…Should You Trust “God’s Ministers”? [Cultist: 'Ravenous wolves']

Original link to this article written by one of Herbert W. Armstrong's lieutenants in his cultic warfare...a guy named McNair who was quick to the draw in referencing Worldwide Church of God leaders as...yes, YOU guessed it..."ravenous wolves..." a fave tactic of HWA break-off groups!!!!: You May Be Shocked at God’s answer…Should You Trust “God’s Ministers”?

Authority-wise, McNair doesn't make an appeal to God or Jesus Christ, but to Herbert W. Armstrong:

* "My appointment to serve on the WCG Doctrinal Teams. Mr. H.W. Armstrong appointed me to serve under him over the Headquarters Doctrinal Team in 1974..."
* "My ordination as an Evangelist in the WCG. Mr. Herbert W. Armstrong ordained me as an Evangelist—over 51 years ago."
* "Appointed Deputy Chancellor of Ambassador Colleges in England, and Pasadena, CA. In 1960, Mr. Herbert W. Armstrong appointed me Deputy Chancellor of Ambassador College, near London."

This is what happens with personality cults: Everything is boiled down to the "filter" or "mousetrap" of one single man who isn't Jesus Christ.