That’s what I figured. Not understanding the prophesy of Daniel leads to all kinds of error. Israel as a nation was allotted 490 years before the end would come. There are seven years of that left unfulfilled. The re-gathering of the Israeli people and the re-establishment of Israel as a nation in 1948 should have been a clue to all believers.
God promised He would not totally destroy the nation of Israel.
Leviticus 26:44 And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the Lord their God. 45 But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the Lord.
God said He would re-gather them to their land.
Ezekiel 28:25 25 ‘Thus says the Lord God, “When I gather the house of Israel from the peoples among whom they are scattered, and will manifest My holiness in them in the sight of the nations, then they will live in their [a]land which I gave to My servant Jacob.
>>Do I think the Tribulation is about Israel, no. You find a lot more mention of the saints than of Israel in Revelation, especially:<<
There is no mention of the church (the body of Christ) after Revelation 4. The seven year tribulation is threefold. To bring punishment on an unbelieving world and an end to wickedness (Isaiah 13:9; 24:19-20), to bring about the repentance of the remnant of Israel, and to preach the gospel to all nations and tongues by the two witnesses and an angel (Revelation 14:6).
The “woman” of Revelation 12 is the nation of Israel who brought forth Christ and from whom the 144,000 will be selected and protected.
>>BTW, my favorite pre-trib invention is the 144,000 greatest missionaries of all time, and the great revival they bring about. Never found anything remotely close to that in scripture, but it must be maintained to explain the multitudes that are saved after the pre-trib rapture.
I agree. The 144,000 are not “missionaries”. The word will be preached by the two witnesses and an angel to all the nations, tongues, and people.
Actually, there are 3.5 years left unfulfilled, as you say. Jesus' ministry was 3.5 years, and he was "cut off", which resulted in the end to sacrifice.
I have been told several times that I did not understand prophecy, and needed to read so-and-so's book, to explain it to me. When I pointed out the plain scriptures in the NT regarding the gathering together and the resurrection, I was told that they don't mean what they say, rather, they have to be "understood" in light of dispensational teaching from Darby, Scofield, et al.
I will never convince you of the validity of scripture, so all I can can do is urge you too read all the NT passages relating to the resurrection, and realize how EVRY ONE has to be explained in a way that contradicts the plain reading of the text. To wit:
John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
I have been told that Jesus did not mean the LAST day of human history, but rather, the last day of the church on earth. Jesus mentions it 5 times without this "clarification".
2 Thess 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
After the warning to not be deceived, we are told that the gathering will not occur until these 2 preceeding events. However, I have been told repeatedly that the rapture is "imminent".
1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
I have been corrected that this is not the last trum of the 7 in Revelation, but rather the last sound of the trumpet call for the rapture. Those in the know refer to Matthes 24:31. But this is even more problematic when looking at Matt 24:29, below.
Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days
I have been corrected that this is all written to the Jews, as evidenced by the term "elect" in verse 31. The word "eklektos" is used 16 times in the NT. 1 time for Jesus, 1 time for the Angels, and 7 times that clearly refers to the Church. The remaining 7 times are non-descript, and could refer to the Church or to Israel. However, there are NO clear references to Israel as Elect in the NT.
In any case, the pre-trib position must reserve these and many other NT scriptures, and re-explain them in light of the pre-trib position, a teaching for which there is NOT A SINGLE SCRIPTURE reference that clearly explains the doctrine. Please correct me on this mis-statement. Reference and show the verse in our correction, don't just declare I am wrong and ignorant of prophecy.
For what is worth, there is no mention of "the church" in chapters 1-3 either. Rather, 7 individual churches in the province of Asia are mentioned.
Incidentally, these churches are mentioned again in Rev 22:16, which after "Revelation 4". :)
Interestingly enough, the saints (gr hagios) are mentioned 13 times in Revelation, and is never preceded by the term "tribulation" as a qualifier. Saints are believers in Christ, to wit:
1 Cor 1:2 "Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord
Paul uses the term church and saints interchangeably in both letter's greetings, eg 1 Cor 1:2, 2 Cor 1:1. Thus, it is safe to conclude that the saints referred to in Rev 5 onward are saved by faith in Christ, and are part of the church.
The only reason to call the saints in Rev 5 onward "tribulation saints" not part of the church, is the starting premise that the church has already been raptured. However, this is not supported by any text in Revelation (or anywhere in the Bible), and is forced onto the scripture.
Please don't respond with "...you don't understand prophecy...", but rather with scriptural proof of you assertions, much as I have done repeatedly in this exchange. You are right, I don't understand the "prophecy" you espouse, for it is not scriptural.