When is the Rapture ?

Jesus is coming 2016 ^ | current | Jesus is coming 2016

[CynicalBear]

>>No one is resurrected or changed until the last trump.<<

Anyone not blinded by heretical teaching knows that the seventh trumpet of Revelation is not the trump of the rapture.

[Elsie]

Unless you are Mary; or are voted a saint as determined by the powers that be in Rome.

[Elsie]

Anyone not blinded by heretical teaching knows that the seventh trumpet of Revelation is not the trump of the rapture.

1. Upon the first trumpet sound, hail and fire, mixed with blood, is thrown to the Earth burning up a third of the trees on the planet, and all green grass. (Revelation 8:7)

 

2. By the second trumpet sounding, it cues something like a great burning mountain that plunges into the sea and wipes out a third of all sea life and ships. A third of the oceans will become blood. (Revelation 8:8-9)

3. By the sound of the third trumpet, a great star called Wormwood falls to the Earth poisoning a third of the planet's freshwater sources, such as rivers and springs. Men will die from drinking its bitter taste. (Revelation 8:10-11)

4. Following the sounding of the fourth trumpet, a third of the light that shines from the Sun, moon and stars became dark from these celestial bodies being "struck". This catastrophe caused complete darkness for a third of a day, during the day, even through night hours.(Revelation 8:12)

5.The fifth trumpet sound is the "first Woe" of three. Before this trumpet sounds, an angel (translated eagle in some versions) appears, flying in mid-heaven, and warns, "Woe, woe, woe, to those who dwell on the earth, because of the remaining blasts of the trumpet of the three angels who are about to sound!" [6]

 

6. Five months after the fifth trumpet blast, the sixth one sounds.[9] This is the "Second woe", where four angels are released from their binds to the "great river Euphrates". They command a brute force of 200 million mounted troops whose horses dissipate plague from out of their mouths, most notably: fire, smoke, and brimstone. The mounted horsemen wore breastplates with the color of fire, hyacinth, and brimstone. The horses had a lion's head and their tails were like a serpent, even with a snake head. They are responsible for the deaths of a third of mankind who are striken by the plague that emanated from these armies. (Revelation 9:13-21)

 

7. The sound of the seventh trumpet signals the "Third woe". This is the final trumpet sound and the final woe. Loud voices in heaven proclaim Christ as ruler forever and ever under the "Kingdom of our Lord". Thanks is given to God, the Almighty and praise for the wrath that came, the dead who were judged, and the bond-servants rewarded. The temple of God in heaven then opened and the Ark of the covenant appeared in His temple. Then lightning and peals of thunder occurred followed by an earthquake and a great hailstorm. (Revelation 11:15-19)

 

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1 Thessalonians 4:13-18  (NIV)

 

 

 

13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

[CynicalBear]

The differences between the two is telling isn’t it. None of the bad things happen at the sound of the trump in 1 Thessalonians 4. Forcing the two to be the same is inserting words into either one or both texts.

[editor-surveyor]

>> “”:Anyone not blinded by heretical teaching knows that the seventh trumpet of Revelation is not the trump of the rapture” <<

.Wow! - Another one! - Special trumps for pre-tribbers.

The 7th trump is the last trump. there are no more trumps.

Revelation says that the 7th trump is when Yeshua comes in the cloud with his angels. Paul says that it happens at “the last trump,” the traditional end of Yom Teruah. They are one and the same. Yeshua also says that you must endure to the end to be saved. Maybe the pre-tribbers just don’t get saved?

That is where my money is. Only faithful believers that endure to the end get saved. Pre-tribbers don’t seem to believe, and think ‘grace’ means that they don’t have to endure. I think we’ve solved the dilemma.

[editor-surveyor]

The “trumpet call” is identified quite well by Paul:

1Corinthians 15:

[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Its always nice to have all of the pertinent scriptures posted, isn't it!

Chubby Checker had nothing on you!

[editor-surveyor]

The difference between a believer, and a pre-tribber is what is “telling.”

When the missiles start raining in, throw your copy of “The Late Great Planet Earth” into the fire, and go out to watch the woes.

[editor-surveyor]

“Under the altar,” dead awaiting the first resurrection.

[editor-surveyor]

>> “As Elsie pointed out, the apostles already dealt with heresy such as you preach as shown in Acts 15” <<

.
Acts 15 supports my points perfectly if you read it all:

[20] But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
[21] For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Do you read that?

The council of Jerusalem expect them to be in their synagogue every Sabbath day learning Torah for themselves.

Acts 15 demolishes your Nicean heresy completely.

[editor-surveyor]

>> “Unless you are Mary; or are voted a saint as determined by the powers that be in Rome” <<

.
I’m not running unless you’re going to be my campaign manager :o)

[Elsie]

Do you read that?

Did you leave anything out?

[Elsie]

 

 

 

Acts 15 supports my points perfectly if you read it all:

Acts 15 supports my points perfectly if you read just a little of it:

¹ Certain people came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the believers: “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.”

² This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them.

 

 

Did you leave anything out??

 

¹⁹ “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God.

²⁰ Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.

²¹ For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”

[Elsie]

The council of Jerusalem expect them to be in their synagogue every Sabbath day learning Torah for themselves.

Yeah; that had been REALLY effective!

[Elsie]

The council of Jerusalem expect them to be in their synagogue every Sabbath day learning Torah for themselves.

You REALLY got this from reading ALL of Acts 15?

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Poor Chubby must be twisting in his grave!

[Elsie]

 

Revelation 11:15-19

¹⁵ The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

“The kingdom of the world has become
    the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
    and he will reign for ever and ever.”

¹⁶ And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, ¹⁷ saying:

“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
    the One who is and who was,
because you have taken your great power
    and have begun to reign.
¹⁸ The nations were angry,
    and your wrath has come.
The time has come for judging the dead,
    and for rewarding your servants the prophets                    (before)
and your people who revere your name,
    both great and small—
and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”                   (after)

¹⁹ Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a severe hailstorm.

 

 

Gonna be a LOT going on during the LAST trump!

1 Corinthians 15:20-24

²⁰ But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. ²¹ For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. ²² For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. ²³ But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. ²⁴ Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

 

[Elsie]

5/6^ths

[Elsie]

I’m not running unless you’re going to be my campaign manager :o)

Well; you seem to be a conservative; so that'll be good enough for Priebus.

[CynicalBear]

>>The 7th trump is the last trump. there are no more trumps.<<

Trumpets are mentioned almost 100 times in scripture. Not one of those times does it indicate that the trump of God at which the body of Christ is “caught up” is the same as the seventh trumpet blown by an angel during the tribulation. There are many more indications that they are not the same. The seventh blowing of the trumpet was at the destruction of the walls of Jericho as it will bring destruction during the tribulation. The seventh trumpet of Revelation 11 will be for the time of the dead while the trump of the rapture will be for the living in Christ.

Christ doesn’t leave heaven to meet those “in Christ” in the clouds at the blowing of the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11. The trump in I Thess. 4:13-18 and I Cor. 15:51-53 is about believers only but the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11 is about unbelievers and their destruction.

>> Revelation says that the 7th trump is when Yeshua comes in the cloud with his angels.<<

Nothing in Revelation 11 says Jesus comes in the clouds with His angels at the blowing of the seventh trumpet. But “there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail”.

The trump of I Thess. 4:13-18 and I Cor. 15:51-53 is an act of the grace of God. The seventh trumpet of Revelation 11 is an act of the wrath of God.

Only the cults and the deceived try to make the two the same.

[CynicalBear]

>>Do you read that?<<

Oh indeed I do! The disciples knew full well that there was still the influence from the old covenant being taught. That is why they had the meeting in the first place. It’s why “Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them” that were teaching “Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved”. The disciples met in Jerusalem to once and for all make clear “that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood”. They knew that “Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day” and that they needed to make sure those who followed Christ were not subject to those old laws as they had been.

Notice that verse 21 says they were preaching Moses in the synagogues NOT Christ. Those who follow Moses need to understand that the law is not where our salvation comes from, it is the shed blood of Christ.

Follow Moses if you choose. I choose to follow Christ.

[editor-surveyor]

Your blind reading is quite amazing!

They were to go to the synagogue every Sabbath day to learn Torah.

Paul and Peter were quite capable of teaching the Way of Yeshua Ha Massiach (that you mistakenly call by the pagan term “christ”) but their quandry was how much of Torah they needed to personally teach. The council produced a sensible approach in their deliberations.

Its unfortunate that they didn’t foresee the rise of Pagan Nicean and pre-trib apostasy, or they could have added additional teaching to avoid the damage those vile ideas produce.

Pre-tribbers spin like dervishes!