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Locked on 12/26/2013 5:28:25 AM PST by Religion Moderator, reason:
Childish behavior |
Posted on 12/22/2013 7:28:20 AM PST by DouglasKC
“The Christian faith has not been tried and found wanting. It has rather been found difficult and left untried.” —Chesterton
I am the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending.The story of Jesus is either the greatest event in history or the cruelest hoax. If it is a hoax, then the whole of the Christian message crumbles together with the hopes of those multitudes of lives built on his name. The apostle Paul said:
“And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up; if in fact the dead do not rise. For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.” -1 Corinthians 15:14-19 (NKJV)
But if the story is true, then this world has been hit with extraordinary news of earth-shaking consequences. Have you taken the trouble to decide which it is?
In a matter this weighty, it is in your interest to explore the truth or falsity of Christ's claims. Amazingly however, many people who don't believe have never bothered to explore the evidence in support of Jesus,[1] but to the contrary, often run away from it. At the same time, many Christians themselves are not sure, at bottom, whether the claims of their faith are solid. Is the Christian claim a hoax? Is it just wishful thinking? Or is it actually true?
(Excerpt) Read more at christiananswers.net ...
It was not meant as a snarky response and if taken that way, my apologies. I gathered you had some substance to share on the Trinity and my observation is no one truly goes to links. It was a mere suggestion since you were in the conversation.
It wasn’t accepted Doctrine until the Council of Nicea ( and not even widely accepted then)which is what I meant.
I am not saying the idea didn’t exist. It did. It was a raging controversy with 1/2 the Roman Empire Christians being Aryans.
The only reason Trinitarians are in the majority now is because of the edict issued by the Emperor declaring them Heretics. That established a Trinitarian Church.
The Scriptural evidence is that neither Peter or Paul believed that.
God has already shown me that Jesus is not God, despite anything Polycarp might have to say to the contrary.
95 AD was after all the Apostles were dead.
You can’t show me where Paul preached that Jesus is God but I can show you where he preached that Jesus is the Son of God
Acts 9:20 ASV
American Standard Version
And straightway in the synagogues he proclaimed Jesus, that he is the Son of God
“It wasn’t accepted Doctrine until the Council of Nicea ( and not even widely accepted then)which is what I meant.
I am not saying the idea didn’t exist. It did. It was a raging controversy with 1/2 the Roman Empire Christians being Aryans.”
The Arian controversy did not begin till about the 4th century. Ignatius and Polycarp did not know any such thing as an ‘Arian.’ The only other opponents to the church and to these holy doctrines, (and the church itself, judging from the vast amount of writings from the time, was no small number), were the various types of Gnostics who believed that the God of the Old Testament was the evil Demiurge, and that Christ did not really die on the cross. I doubt you hold to these beliefs.
Unless you’re a Gnostic, then you’re an Arian rebel who dates to the 4th century, who has nothing whatever to do with Christians of the first century, such as the Apostles, and those who came immediately after them.
Until God opens their minds they will only understand when it’s too late.
21Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.
John 20:21
“95 AD was after all the Apostles were dead.”
Actually, John may have still been then living at the time. The other Apostles all died in the run up to 70AD. At best, you’re dealing with a separation of 20 years, at the most but probably a lot less. That means that in less than 20 years, “heresy” already took over the church, at least from your viewpoint.
“You can’t show me where Paul preached that Jesus is God but I can show you where he preached that Jesus is the Son of God””
“But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail. But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?”
(Heb 1:8-14)
Peter and Paul did not believe that Jesus was God. We have that Testimony in the Bible.
They date to the first Century. Peter was a contemporary.
I assume you mean the following verse:
Joh_5:19 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise.
The purpose of Christ and the Father is in complete harmony. Christ would NOT do anything the Father would not do nor would the Father do anything Christ would not do. They are one in the same. That is why the Jews sought to stone Him. He equated Himself with God.
No, I don’t mean that.
I Can of Mine Own Self Do Nothing The Father That Dwelleth in Me, He Doeth the Works. John 5:19
“Peter and Paul did not believe that Jesus was God. We have that Testimony in the Bible.
They date to the first Century. Peter was a contemporary.”
Thank you for at least conceding, through your new silence, the other silly matter.
But as for the teachings of scripture, Yes they did.
“Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:”
(Php 2:5-7)
You’re also offering a false separation between being the ‘Son of God’ and being God incarnate. The two are the same.
Isa_9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isa_7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Mat_1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Such was the view of the Pharisees, who considered claiming to be the Son was the same as making yourself equal with God:
Joh_5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
And again, when they picked up the stones to kill Him, for claiming to be “I am.”
Joh 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Joh 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
Your point is good and well taken, however, you fail to realize that Jesus claimed both, and the Jews understood it as such, hence their attempt to stone him:
John 10:30 "I and the Father are one.”
....
33“We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”
...
36b "Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?
37Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father.
38But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”
He also told the disciples:
John 14:5Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”
6Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
7If you really know me, you will knowb my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”
8Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”
9Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
10Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
11Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves.
You may claim I "Twist and turn however you want", but this is the plain teaching of John, and a clear follow up to John 1:1.
>> “Those who don’t understand that Jesus was both God and Man will never understand. They don’t understand that Jesus the man prayed to God the Father. Jesus the Jewish man had to follow all the laws. Jesus was both fully God and fully man. Until people come to that truth all of these questions will remain unanswered in their minds.
Until God opens their minds they will only understand when it’s too late.” <<
AMEN!
Had Yeshua failed on a single element, he would not have been elligible to be our Passover Lamb!
Thanks.
Did God make the world and all that is in it or did Jesus make the world and all that is in it?
>> “It is not I that doeth the works but the Father” <<
.
Taking quotes out of context differs very little from the telling of falsehood.
When the Abomination that makes Desolate stands on the mercy seat of the ark, will you finally be satisfied that your god is here?
.
To quote Jesus, "Are you not in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God?" Mark 12:24 NIV
Paul in Phillipians 2:6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; 7rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very natureb of a servant, being made in human likeness. NIV
Paul in Colossians 1:19 "For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him" NIV
Peter in 2 Peter 1:1 "Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ " NIV
So when Jesus told Philip that if he had seen Jesus, he had seen the Father, then Jesus was lying?
And the name *Immanuel* meaning *God with us* isn't accurate either?
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