Posted on 12/16/2013 8:08:08 AM PST by GonzoII
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In his book, Answers to Catholic Claims, A Discussion of Biblical Authority, Protestant Apologist James White claims praying to saints is contrary to Scripture: The Bible strongly condemns communication with the dead. It does not matter if those who died were good or bad, saintly or evil, there is to be no communication between the living and the dead. The only communication with spirit beings that originates with man that is allowed in Scripture is that of prayer to God and He alone. Biblical texts like Deut. 18:10-11 and Isaiah 19:3—each of which condemns necromancy—are employed to say “communication with the dead” is condemned absolutely. Actually, what is being condemned in these texts from Deuteronomy and Isaiah is conjuring up the dead through wizards and mediums, not praying to saints. The Church has always condemned this that is commonly called necromancy. Mediums attempt to conjure up spirits and manipulate the spiritual realm at will. This is categorically different from Christians asking for the intercession of their brothers and sisters in Christ. We do not “conjure up” or manipulate anything or anyone. True prayer—whether to God or the angels and saints—changes the pray-er, not the pray-ee. If one says recklessly as Mr. White said, “… there is to be no communication between the living and the dead,” where does this leave Jesus? He is clearly guilty according to Luke 9:29-31: And as [Jesus] was praying, the appearance of his countenance was altered, and his raiment became dazzling white. And behold, two men talked with him, Moses and Elijah, who appeared in glory and spoke of his departure, which he was to accomplish at Jerusalem. According to Deuteronomy 34:5, Moses was dead. And yet Jesus was communicating with him and Elijah about the most important event in human history—the redemption. Obviously, Jesus does not agree with Mr. White. FIRST CONTACT There is another point to White’s argument that requires a deeper level of response. Notice, he said, “The only communication with spirit beings that originates with man that is allowed in Scripture is that of prayer to God and He alone.” This point taken alone would not exclude communicating with the dead in any context. It would only exclude such communication if contact originates from the earth dweller. In one sense, it seems Mr. White, as well as our Protestant friends he represents by his statement, is stuck in an Old Testament mindset. It is true that we do not see Old Covenant faithful initiating prayer to the dearly departed, but this is to be expected because the faithful dead before Christ and the beatific vision afforded by him would not have had the power to either hear or respond to those prayers. Moreover, the Old Covenant People of God did not have the developed understanding of the after-life that only came with the Revelation of Christ. Jesus Christ introduces a radical development the Old Covenant saints could not have imagined when he clearly initiates the communication with the faithful departed unlike anything we saw in the Old Testament. I say “clearly” because even Protestant Apologist Eric Svendsen seems to see it, though I’m not sure how cognizant he was of the rammifications of this statement he made about the Transfiguration in his book, Evangelical Answers: The transfiguration was an apocalyptic event choreographed directly by the Son of God to give the apostles a glimpse of his eschatological glory… If Jesus “choreographed” it, then he initiated it. Some may say, “Well, he’s God, so he can do that.” Yes, he is. But he is also fully man and we are called to imitate him. If Jesus initiated communication with the dead, there is no reason to believe followers of Jesus cannot do the same. This is precisely what we mean as Catholics when we say we “pray to the saints.” THE BIBLE SAYS SO The New Testament presents to us very plain examples of the faithful on earth initiating communication with the saints in heaven. First, we have Hebrews 11-12. Chapter 11 gives us what I call the “hall of faith” wherein the lives of many of the Old Testament saints are recounted. Then, the inspired author encourages these to whom he referred earlier as a people who were being persecuted for their faith (10:32-35), to consider that they are “surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses,” encouraging them to “run the race” of faith set before them. Then, beginning in 12:18, he encourages these New Covenant faithful by reminding them that their covenant—the New Covenant—is far superior to the Old: For you have not come to what may be touched, a blazing fire … darkness … gloom … and the sound of a trumpet, and a voice whose words made the hearers entreat that no further messages be spoken to them… But you have come to… the city of the living God… and to innumerable angels… and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven… and to… God… and to the spirits of just men made perfect… and to Jesus… Notice, in the Old Covenant the faithful approached God alone and with trepidation. But in the New Covenant, the faithful have experienced a radical change for the better. “But you have come to … and to … and to … and to.” In the same way we can initiate prayer and in so doing “come to” God and Jesus, we can also “come to” the angels and “the spirits of just men made perfect.” Those would be the saints in heaven. In the fellowship of the saints, we have the aid and encouragement of the whole family of God. The Book of Revelation gives us an even better description of this communication between heaven and earth: The twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints … the elders fell down and worshipped (5:8-14). These “elders” are offering the prayers of the faithful symbolized by incense filtering upward from the earth to heaven. And because they are seen receiving these prayers, we can reasonably conclude they were both directed to these saints in heaven and that they were initiated by the faithful living on earth. We also see this same phenomenon being performed by the angels in Revelation 8:3-4: And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God. And these prayers offered to God through the mediation of the angels are answered as symbolized by “thunder” and “lightning” that are then cast upon the earth through those prayers: Then the angel took the censer and filled it with fire from the altar and threw it on the earth; and there were peals of thunder, loud noises, flashes of lightning, and an earthquake. The bottom line is this: Both the faithful on earth and our brothers and sisters in heaven (and let’s not forget our “cousins,” the angels) are all acting just as Catholics would expect. Believers on earth are initiating prayers which the saints and angels in heaven are receiving. Is this the necromancy condemned in Deuteronomy and Isaiah? Absolutely not! This is New Testament Christianity. |
As I said in my reply to your PM, I turn my other cheek to you. Have peace brother.
At 10 and 4 this year the Saints might be benefiting from prayer.
I am not a man. For your information, check my FR page.
I don’t deny Christ on it at all. Just click on my name.
Why not?
They can be driven out through handkerchiefs:
Act 19:11,12 And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul...So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.
Through bones a man can be brought back to life:
2Ki 13:21 And it came to pass, as they were burying a man, that, behold, they spied a band of men; and they cast the man into the sepulchre of Elisha: and when the man was let down, and touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood up on his feet.
Cures can be performed through Peter's shadow:
Acts 5:15,16 Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them...There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.
Wow!
You pick a verse that’s not even in the Bible to prove a pagan practice?
That takes guts!
Even if it were Canonised it is not good practice to make theology with one scripture, especially since it contradicts others.
It’s too early, but Merry Christmas!
I ran out of cheeks. Have peace sister.
“Mary and the saints in heaven can see and hear us.”
Prove it using actual evidence that demonstrates your truth claim is true.
It sounds like you were duped by some teacher or other who reads too much into symbolism while declaring a pox on those who have preached on the realities of Hell for 2000 years!
I listen to about 2.5 hours of the bible pretty much every day on my way to and from work. I’m amazed how many verses there are that touch on this subject in sometimes very subtle ways. They pretty much all point to “death”, “destruction”, “perish”, etc. And even the ones that are “fuzzy” are only that way because they are not talking about the person who is destroyed, but the place where the person is destroyed.
I use this analogy to explain: If I say I’m going to paint a fence blue for all eternity, does it mean I am going to spend eternity painting the fence blue, or that I will paint it once and it will STAY BLUE for all eternity?
The scriptures that bring up this concept about the fate of the lost generally relate to the latter.
And I’m not concerned about what has been taught in various churches for 2,000 years. If I was, I would be Catholic. I’m concerned about what the bible says, not what men say.
Much hope in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
Yep. You can go straight to John 3:16:
Eternal life vs “perish”. If they are both eternal “life” but in different places, it would not be worded that way. Eternal life is the opposite of the other side of the equation. Eternal death would be more like it. You are dead and it is an eternal condition. You ain’t comin’ back.
Do you have a problem with that?
The bible clearly teaches that the saints are the believers.
“If one says recklessly as Mr. White said, “… there is to be no communication between the living and the dead,” where does this leave Jesus? He is clearly guilty according to Luke 9:29-31:
By the same token in acts 3 when Peter healed the lame man, does that mean any one can do it?
I know that faith can heal but show me a man who can do what the early apostles did.
I believe there is much more we do not know than what we do know even among the most vivid Bible readers that i hesitate in either way take a stand about communicating with the dead.
What i can say is that it is not what the teachings of the Bible is all about.
Many people use a verse or two in the Bible to teach reincarnation and they have just as much evidence as some other teachings such as communicating with dead saints
But again the Bible does not teach reincarnation no more than it teaches the former.
I believe i actually saw an angel one time, but if this was what the teaching of the Bible was about i believe there would be much more about it.
God can hear and see us.
Christ can hear and see us.
Mary and the saints in heaven can see and hear us.
Very simple.
To me, time is a current in an ocean called eternity.
But aren’t we living in analog time? From point a to point b?
God has no time frame in heaven. Always was, always is, and always will be.
Much hope in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church because it was founded by Christ.
Mary and the saints in heaven can see and hear us.
Jesus said i will raise you up at the last day.
He is talking about the souls of them that are dead, the spiritual bodies.
:)
A good study on the subject (Kinda long and in depth, though): http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/books/immortality_resurrection/6.htm
It’s never too early! :) Who knows if we will see each other again before Christmas?
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