Praying to Saints

Tim Staples' Blog ^ | October 25, 2013 | Tim Staples

[GonzoII]

Praying to Saints

In his book, Answers to Catholic Claims, A Discussion of Biblical Authority, Protestant Apologist James White claims praying to saints is contrary to Scripture:

The Bible strongly condemns communication with the dead. It does not matter if those who died were good or bad, saintly or evil, there is to be no communication between the living and the dead. The only communication with spirit beings that originates with man that is allowed in Scripture is that of prayer to God and He alone.

Biblical texts like Deut. 18:10-11 and Isaiah 19:3—each of which condemns necromancy—are employed to say “communication with the dead” is condemned absolutely.

Actually, what is being condemned in these texts from Deuteronomy and Isaiah is conjuring up the dead through wizards and mediums, not praying to saints. The Church has always condemned this that is commonly called necromancy. Mediums attempt to conjure up spirits and manipulate the spiritual realm at will. This is categorically different from Christians asking for the intercession of their brothers and sisters in Christ. We do not “conjure up” or manipulate anything or anyone. True prayer—whether to God or the angels and saints—changes the pray-er, not the pray-ee.

If one says recklessly as Mr. White said, “… there is to be no communication between the living and the dead,” where does this leave Jesus? He is clearly guilty according to Luke 9:29-31:

And as [Jesus] was praying, the appearance of his countenance was altered, and his raiment became dazzling white. And behold, two men talked with him, Moses and Elijah, who appeared in glory and spoke of his departure, which he was to accomplish at Jerusalem.

According to Deuteronomy 34:5, Moses was dead. And yet Jesus was communicating with him and Elijah about the most important event in human history—the redemption. Obviously, Jesus does not agree with Mr. White.

FIRST CONTACT

There is another point to White’s argument that requires a deeper level of response. Notice, he said, “The only communication with spirit beings that originates with man that is allowed in Scripture is that of prayer to God and He alone.” This point taken alone would not exclude communicating with the dead in any context. It would only exclude such communication if contact originates from the earth dweller.

In one sense, it seems Mr. White, as well as our Protestant friends he represents by his statement, is stuck in an Old Testament mindset. It is true that we do not see Old Covenant faithful initiating prayer to the dearly departed, but this is to be expected because the faithful dead before Christ and the beatific vision afforded by him would not have had the power to either hear or respond to those prayers. Moreover, the Old Covenant People of God did not have the developed understanding of the after-life that only came with the Revelation of Christ.

Jesus Christ introduces a radical development the Old Covenant saints could not have imagined when he clearly initiates the communication with the faithful departed unlike anything we saw in the Old Testament. I say “clearly” because even Protestant Apologist Eric Svendsen seems to see it, though I’m not sure how cognizant he was of the rammifications of this statement he made about the Transfiguration in his book, Evangelical Answers:

The transfiguration was an apocalyptic event choreographed directly by the Son of God to give the apostles a glimpse of his eschatological glory…

If Jesus “choreographed” it, then he initiated it. Some may say, “Well, he’s God, so he can do that.” Yes, he is. But he is also fully man and we are called to imitate him. If Jesus initiated communication with the dead, there is no reason to believe followers of Jesus cannot do the same. This is precisely what we mean as Catholics when we say we “pray to the saints.”

THE BIBLE SAYS SO

The New Testament presents to us very plain examples of the faithful on earth initiating communication with the saints in heaven. First, we have Hebrews 11-12. Chapter 11 gives us what I call the “hall of faith” wherein the lives of many of the Old Testament saints are recounted. Then, the inspired author encourages these to whom he referred earlier as a people who were being persecuted for their faith (10:32-35), to consider that they are “surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses,” encouraging them to “run the race” of faith set before them. Then, beginning in 12:18, he encourages these New Covenant faithful by reminding them that their covenant—the New Covenant—is far superior to the Old:

For you have not come to what may be touched, a blazing fire … darkness … gloom … and the sound of a trumpet, and a voice whose words made the hearers entreat that no further messages be spoken to them…

But you have come to… the city of the living God… and to innumerable angels… and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven… and to… God… and to the spirits of just men made perfect… and to Jesus…

Notice, in the Old Covenant the faithful approached God alone and with trepidation. But in the New Covenant, the faithful have experienced a radical change for the better. “But you have come to … and to … and to … and to.” In the same way we can initiate prayer and in so doing “come to” God and Jesus, we can also “come to” the angels and “the spirits of just men made perfect.” Those would be the saints in heaven. In the fellowship of the saints, we have the aid and encouragement of the whole family of God.

The Book of Revelation gives us an even better description of this communication between heaven and earth:

The twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints … the elders fell down and worshipped (5:8-14).

These “elders” are offering the prayers of the faithful symbolized by incense filtering upward from the earth to heaven. And because they are seen receiving these prayers, we can reasonably conclude they were both directed to these saints in heaven and that they were initiated by the faithful living on earth. We also see this same phenomenon being performed by the angels in Revelation 8:3-4:

And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.

And these prayers offered to God through the mediation of the angels are answered as symbolized by “thunder” and “lightning” that are then cast upon the earth through those prayers:

Then the angel took the censer and filled it with fire from the altar and threw it on the earth; and there were peals of thunder, loud noises, flashes of lightning, and an earthquake.

The bottom line is this: Both the faithful on earth and our brothers and sisters in heaven (and let’s not forget our “cousins,” the angels) are all acting just as Catholics would expect. Believers on earth are initiating prayers which the saints and angels in heaven are receiving. Is this the necromancy condemned in Deuteronomy and Isaiah? Absolutely not! This is New Testament Christianity.

[CynicalBear]

I just went to the two sites you sourced. I find in interesting that they both disagree with your view. I would think that you find that troubling.

[CynicalBear]

The “right reason” is that God loved us so much that He sent His only begotten Son to suffer in our stead to keep us from suffering eternally ourselves.

I fail to see the fear of simply ceasing to exist in any form. Why would I fear the one who can cause my soul to simply cease to exist? At that point it’s over. I’ll just have my fun here and then I simply cease to exist. Where is the fear in that?

[cuban leaf]

I just went to the two sites you sourced. I find in interesting that they both disagree with your view. I would think that you find that troubling.

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Nobody agrees with me 100% and vice versa. But which sites are you referring to? It may be that I have not stated my position accurately.

[cuban leaf]

Why would I fear the one who can cause my soul to simply cease to exist?

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To you and me, as Christians, that is not a big deal. To the lost, it probably is. And, again, “fear” is no reason to come to Christ. Desire for a relationship with Him is the only legitimate reason that I can see. Those that come to Him out of fear, do so begrudgingly. That is not what the Jesus of the bible that I read is looking for. Kinda like the cheerful giver thing.

All of human actions are driven from one of two perspectives: Fear of bad outcomes and desire for a good outcome. And fear is the lack of faith. Fear should never be a driver of your actions.

[CynicalBear]

>> But which sites are you referring to?<<

The two sites you gave in the post I was responding to. Post 207.

>> It may be that I have not stated my position accurately.<<

I doubt there is any misunderstanding of your position. I think it’s obvious to most everyone that you have completely ignored the intent of the Greek words used and have twisted the meaning and intent of those words to fit a carnal viewpoint. I can find no Greek scholars that agree with your view.

[CynicalBear]

>>To the lost, it probably is.<<

Absolutely not. It’s the very reason most give for statements like, “what’s the problem?” I have never once encountered anyone who fears dying if they believe it’s nothing more than ceasing to exist in any form. It’s the reasoning behind many who commit suicide. They just want done with the suffering here. For several years is was on an ambulance crew and had to respond to suicides. Those who left notes indicated they just wanted to end the suffering. They believed your view of death. It’s cruel thing to give people that false understanding.

>>And, again, “fear” is no reason to come to Christ.<<

One would wonder then why scripture is replete with the opposite view.

Hebrews 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage

Hebrews 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

>>All of human actions are driven from one of two perspectives:<<

And scripture clearly teaches that we should fear that judgment after death if we don’t rely on Christ to save us from that awful fate. Faith in Christ removes that fear and replaces it with a wonderful promise.

[cuban leaf]

Actually, those two links contain many viewpoints. I agree with most of the perspectives they bring. I also agree with the translations of the words.

But, like most biblical scholars far more versed than myself, I understand the context of the whole book of Revelation. That is where I think you and I seem to go separate ways. Some poster here used a phrase from Revelation and claimed it made a point “crystal clear”. That is difficult to say about anything in Revelation except the most core issues (e.g. who Jesus is).

BTW, I’m not a biblical scholar, but I don’t need to be. Neither were the apostles. One can know Jesus without ever laying eyes on a bible. When my Jesus is a God of love and Justice and mercy, I look at all the times Jesus (as well as any writer in the NT or OT) mentions the fate of the lost, it is clearly discussing, as it’s primary point, the fact that they are not to receive eternal life. And usually it goes so far as to say they are eliminated. In the New testament it even compares their fate to the fates of civilizations and cities that were utterly wiped out in the OT.

My Jesus does not torture people for all eternity because they failed to follow him. However, they suffer the same fate of all who do not follow him. That includes those that reached the age of accountability and died five days later without ever hearing about Jesus. They are extinguished. They are not in the presence of the Lord and their condition will never change. There will be no appeal, no parole, no pardon. They are gone, as if they never existed.

Should you fear that? That is your choice. But nobody should come to the Lord out of fear. They come to the Lord from a desire to spend eternity with him and an acknowledge that He is their Creator and God. And they desire to be wholy obedient to him.

[cuban leaf]

Well, clearly we disagree about whether people fear death. Sorry, I’ve got an implementation today and gotta get to it.

[CynicalBear]

Thank you for posting the link to that site. I had not caught the implication of those passages in Revelation.

Revelation 20:10 says they are in the lake of fire. If they had simply been consumed they would no longer be there after that thousand years. The verse then goes on to say that they will be tormented for “the ages of the ages” which the Greek scholars say stretches into infinity. It’s obvious that they are still suffering torment on into infinity rather than having simply been consumed to exist no more.

[boatbums]

Can one remain alive separate from God?

Depends on what is meant by "alive". We know that even as we live here on earth, "But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear." (Isa. 59:2) So, yes, we can be alive and be separated from God.

Then you have to define "separate". Is there any place where we can flee from the presence of God? No. Scripture defines death as separation. The Hebrew word for "separate" is בָּדַל (transliterated as "badal") and can mean set apart, to divide, sever, to withdraw from. Physical death is the separation of our mortal bodies from our immortal souls and spirits. Spiritual death is the separation of our souls and spirits from God. Because God created our souls as eternal, then there can be a time when those souls are "alive" but still separated from God and God calls this place hell. Contrary to stupid wishful thinking satanists, hell will NOT be a place where Satan rules. They think giving their lives to his service will buy them some favoritism in hell - since they are resigned to going there anyway. But we know that hell is where Satan will be the worst punished and that, even there, God is still in control.

Sorry that your simple sentence couldn't be answered simply.

[cuban leaf]

It rains on the just and unjust.

[CynicalBear]

That response is totally unclear to me.

[cuban leaf]

Scripture defines death as separation.

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Too much word parsing going in in this discussion. The bible isn’t the primary source of information. My relationship with Him is. We can call it separation if you want. And you can’t live separated from His presence.