Posted on 12/16/2013 8:08:08 AM PST by GonzoII
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In his book, Answers to Catholic Claims, A Discussion of Biblical Authority, Protestant Apologist James White claims praying to saints is contrary to Scripture: The Bible strongly condemns communication with the dead. It does not matter if those who died were good or bad, saintly or evil, there is to be no communication between the living and the dead. The only communication with spirit beings that originates with man that is allowed in Scripture is that of prayer to God and He alone. Biblical texts like Deut. 18:10-11 and Isaiah 19:3—each of which condemns necromancy—are employed to say “communication with the dead” is condemned absolutely. Actually, what is being condemned in these texts from Deuteronomy and Isaiah is conjuring up the dead through wizards and mediums, not praying to saints. The Church has always condemned this that is commonly called necromancy. Mediums attempt to conjure up spirits and manipulate the spiritual realm at will. This is categorically different from Christians asking for the intercession of their brothers and sisters in Christ. We do not “conjure up” or manipulate anything or anyone. True prayer—whether to God or the angels and saints—changes the pray-er, not the pray-ee. If one says recklessly as Mr. White said, “… there is to be no communication between the living and the dead,” where does this leave Jesus? He is clearly guilty according to Luke 9:29-31: And as [Jesus] was praying, the appearance of his countenance was altered, and his raiment became dazzling white. And behold, two men talked with him, Moses and Elijah, who appeared in glory and spoke of his departure, which he was to accomplish at Jerusalem. According to Deuteronomy 34:5, Moses was dead. And yet Jesus was communicating with him and Elijah about the most important event in human history—the redemption. Obviously, Jesus does not agree with Mr. White. FIRST CONTACT There is another point to White’s argument that requires a deeper level of response. Notice, he said, “The only communication with spirit beings that originates with man that is allowed in Scripture is that of prayer to God and He alone.” This point taken alone would not exclude communicating with the dead in any context. It would only exclude such communication if contact originates from the earth dweller. In one sense, it seems Mr. White, as well as our Protestant friends he represents by his statement, is stuck in an Old Testament mindset. It is true that we do not see Old Covenant faithful initiating prayer to the dearly departed, but this is to be expected because the faithful dead before Christ and the beatific vision afforded by him would not have had the power to either hear or respond to those prayers. Moreover, the Old Covenant People of God did not have the developed understanding of the after-life that only came with the Revelation of Christ. Jesus Christ introduces a radical development the Old Covenant saints could not have imagined when he clearly initiates the communication with the faithful departed unlike anything we saw in the Old Testament. I say “clearly” because even Protestant Apologist Eric Svendsen seems to see it, though I’m not sure how cognizant he was of the rammifications of this statement he made about the Transfiguration in his book, Evangelical Answers: The transfiguration was an apocalyptic event choreographed directly by the Son of God to give the apostles a glimpse of his eschatological glory… If Jesus “choreographed” it, then he initiated it. Some may say, “Well, he’s God, so he can do that.” Yes, he is. But he is also fully man and we are called to imitate him. If Jesus initiated communication with the dead, there is no reason to believe followers of Jesus cannot do the same. This is precisely what we mean as Catholics when we say we “pray to the saints.” THE BIBLE SAYS SO The New Testament presents to us very plain examples of the faithful on earth initiating communication with the saints in heaven. First, we have Hebrews 11-12. Chapter 11 gives us what I call the “hall of faith” wherein the lives of many of the Old Testament saints are recounted. Then, the inspired author encourages these to whom he referred earlier as a people who were being persecuted for their faith (10:32-35), to consider that they are “surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses,” encouraging them to “run the race” of faith set before them. Then, beginning in 12:18, he encourages these New Covenant faithful by reminding them that their covenant—the New Covenant—is far superior to the Old: For you have not come to what may be touched, a blazing fire … darkness … gloom … and the sound of a trumpet, and a voice whose words made the hearers entreat that no further messages be spoken to them… But you have come to… the city of the living God… and to innumerable angels… and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven… and to… God… and to the spirits of just men made perfect… and to Jesus… Notice, in the Old Covenant the faithful approached God alone and with trepidation. But in the New Covenant, the faithful have experienced a radical change for the better. “But you have come to … and to … and to … and to.” In the same way we can initiate prayer and in so doing “come to” God and Jesus, we can also “come to” the angels and “the spirits of just men made perfect.” Those would be the saints in heaven. In the fellowship of the saints, we have the aid and encouragement of the whole family of God. The Book of Revelation gives us an even better description of this communication between heaven and earth: The twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints … the elders fell down and worshipped (5:8-14). These “elders” are offering the prayers of the faithful symbolized by incense filtering upward from the earth to heaven. And because they are seen receiving these prayers, we can reasonably conclude they were both directed to these saints in heaven and that they were initiated by the faithful living on earth. We also see this same phenomenon being performed by the angels in Revelation 8:3-4: And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God. And these prayers offered to God through the mediation of the angels are answered as symbolized by “thunder” and “lightning” that are then cast upon the earth through those prayers: Then the angel took the censer and filled it with fire from the altar and threw it on the earth; and there were peals of thunder, loud noises, flashes of lightning, and an earthquake. The bottom line is this: Both the faithful on earth and our brothers and sisters in heaven (and let’s not forget our “cousins,” the angels) are all acting just as Catholics would expect. Believers on earth are initiating prayers which the saints and angels in heaven are receiving. Is this the necromancy condemned in Deuteronomy and Isaiah? Absolutely not! This is New Testament Christianity. |
Following your exegesis one would have to conclude that God’s covenants aren’t “forever” also.
Regarding the Jonah story, yes that is one of the things I was referring to this morning. Regarding the meaning of the word “forever”, my contention isn’t with the meaning of eternity. Rather, it is the question of how it is spent.
Regarding the fates as described in Revelation, we have to remember we are talking about the book of Revelation here. It is not the source of my theology. It is a book of prophesy rife with symbolism.
What your left with is nothing more than a forced exegesis from a carnal understanding the ends with “did God really say?”
Yeah ... that's why I wondered if he read the article from his own post ... its kinda hard to miss that many citations from the Apocrypha.
In post 105 you did point us to a site that includes the apocrypha as part of it’s “evidence”.
Then you have come to a logical inconsistency.
If Satan and his angels are cast into the same place as unbelieving humans ... and God will not torture the humans for all eternity (because he is good), then He cannot be good if He tortures Satan and his angels for all eternity either. Therefore your theological position forces your conclusion ... of necessity you must support annihilation for Satan and his angels as well.
NOW do you see the point?
You go right ahead and “symbolize” or think whatever you want to as a metaphor. It’s exactly what the unbelievers use. You’re playing right into their hands and giving them the easy “see! Even the believers know its just metaphor”. Well, I’m here to remind you that for those who lead others into error it doesn’t turn out well.
I’m throwing out more of your exegesis than just what came out of the apocrypha.
When I said “I don’t know, I was trying to say “I don’t know” regarding all of this. I am merely interpretting scripture, prayerfully, as I read and study. And what you read here are the conclusions I reached.
It is important to say here that as a student of Revelation since 1983, that I’ve learned that any argument over the literal meaning of any of its verses is not just an exercise in futility, but it violates Titus 3:9.
Back at ya.
But in the nice way. :-)
What I meant was, he’s covering all his bases by including the Apocrypha as someone might include the writings of those who lived at Jesus time as evidence of the culture of the time. I don’t care about the apocrypha though I found it interesting how he addressed it.
And not everyone who disagrees with you is preaching false teaching. Like me, you are human. Like me, you are sincere (apparently).
This means that, like me, you might be dead wrong. Just a thought.
It started THOUSANDS of years before Christ’s birth, over thousands of years, ALL MEN moved by God’s Holy Spirit. But of course, if you’ve ever read the Bible, you know that already.
Hey, I forgot to thank you for that biblehub link, so thanks!
It’s even easier to use than blueletterbible.org.
I’m throwing out more of your exegesis than just what came out of the apocrypha.
How long you have studied something has no bearing on the correctness of your understanding ... It is your exegesis that dictates where you end.
From textual issues to translation, lexical studies, grammatical analysis, biblical and systematic theology, all the way through the exegetical process you are dealing with an assumption that the text is understandable to the average person.
When you place that literal understanding of the Biblical text into the trash heap, you can assign any meaning you like to the text and be perfectly justified in rendering your opinion of the text to be just as good as anyone elses. You begin to ask questions like "what does this passage mean to me" ... instead of "what does this passage mean."
Truth above novelty ... rarely does a novel interpretation involve truth.
Any discussion of Revelation is neither an “exercise in futility” nor is a violation of Titus 3:9. Revelation was given to John for our benefit and must be studied.
Which brings up a point. Do you believe Israel will again be dealt with as a separated nation during the last seven year tribulation?
True...Just dying and it's over is pretty palatable to a lot of people...
Mar 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
You’re welcome. I like biblehub much better than any of the rest.
I've read the Bible but it doesn't give me a list of the inspired books. How do I know which ones are?
She was a virgin when she conceived Christ and was technically still after his birth. She had other children because Mark mentions them as having been “looking for him”. There again it is what the scripture says, not what the teachings of men say it was!
yes
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