Posted on 12/16/2013 8:08:08 AM PST by GonzoII
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In his book, Answers to Catholic Claims, A Discussion of Biblical Authority, Protestant Apologist James White claims praying to saints is contrary to Scripture: The Bible strongly condemns communication with the dead. It does not matter if those who died were good or bad, saintly or evil, there is to be no communication between the living and the dead. The only communication with spirit beings that originates with man that is allowed in Scripture is that of prayer to God and He alone. Biblical texts like Deut. 18:10-11 and Isaiah 19:3—each of which condemns necromancy—are employed to say “communication with the dead” is condemned absolutely. Actually, what is being condemned in these texts from Deuteronomy and Isaiah is conjuring up the dead through wizards and mediums, not praying to saints. The Church has always condemned this that is commonly called necromancy. Mediums attempt to conjure up spirits and manipulate the spiritual realm at will. This is categorically different from Christians asking for the intercession of their brothers and sisters in Christ. We do not “conjure up” or manipulate anything or anyone. True prayer—whether to God or the angels and saints—changes the pray-er, not the pray-ee. If one says recklessly as Mr. White said, “… there is to be no communication between the living and the dead,” where does this leave Jesus? He is clearly guilty according to Luke 9:29-31: And as [Jesus] was praying, the appearance of his countenance was altered, and his raiment became dazzling white. And behold, two men talked with him, Moses and Elijah, who appeared in glory and spoke of his departure, which he was to accomplish at Jerusalem. According to Deuteronomy 34:5, Moses was dead. And yet Jesus was communicating with him and Elijah about the most important event in human history—the redemption. Obviously, Jesus does not agree with Mr. White. FIRST CONTACT There is another point to White’s argument that requires a deeper level of response. Notice, he said, “The only communication with spirit beings that originates with man that is allowed in Scripture is that of prayer to God and He alone.” This point taken alone would not exclude communicating with the dead in any context. It would only exclude such communication if contact originates from the earth dweller. In one sense, it seems Mr. White, as well as our Protestant friends he represents by his statement, is stuck in an Old Testament mindset. It is true that we do not see Old Covenant faithful initiating prayer to the dearly departed, but this is to be expected because the faithful dead before Christ and the beatific vision afforded by him would not have had the power to either hear or respond to those prayers. Moreover, the Old Covenant People of God did not have the developed understanding of the after-life that only came with the Revelation of Christ. Jesus Christ introduces a radical development the Old Covenant saints could not have imagined when he clearly initiates the communication with the faithful departed unlike anything we saw in the Old Testament. I say “clearly” because even Protestant Apologist Eric Svendsen seems to see it, though I’m not sure how cognizant he was of the rammifications of this statement he made about the Transfiguration in his book, Evangelical Answers: The transfiguration was an apocalyptic event choreographed directly by the Son of God to give the apostles a glimpse of his eschatological glory… If Jesus “choreographed” it, then he initiated it. Some may say, “Well, he’s God, so he can do that.” Yes, he is. But he is also fully man and we are called to imitate him. If Jesus initiated communication with the dead, there is no reason to believe followers of Jesus cannot do the same. This is precisely what we mean as Catholics when we say we “pray to the saints.” THE BIBLE SAYS SO The New Testament presents to us very plain examples of the faithful on earth initiating communication with the saints in heaven. First, we have Hebrews 11-12. Chapter 11 gives us what I call the “hall of faith” wherein the lives of many of the Old Testament saints are recounted. Then, the inspired author encourages these to whom he referred earlier as a people who were being persecuted for their faith (10:32-35), to consider that they are “surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses,” encouraging them to “run the race” of faith set before them. Then, beginning in 12:18, he encourages these New Covenant faithful by reminding them that their covenant—the New Covenant—is far superior to the Old: For you have not come to what may be touched, a blazing fire … darkness … gloom … and the sound of a trumpet, and a voice whose words made the hearers entreat that no further messages be spoken to them… But you have come to… the city of the living God… and to innumerable angels… and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven… and to… God… and to the spirits of just men made perfect… and to Jesus… Notice, in the Old Covenant the faithful approached God alone and with trepidation. But in the New Covenant, the faithful have experienced a radical change for the better. “But you have come to … and to … and to … and to.” In the same way we can initiate prayer and in so doing “come to” God and Jesus, we can also “come to” the angels and “the spirits of just men made perfect.” Those would be the saints in heaven. In the fellowship of the saints, we have the aid and encouragement of the whole family of God. The Book of Revelation gives us an even better description of this communication between heaven and earth: The twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints … the elders fell down and worshipped (5:8-14). These “elders” are offering the prayers of the faithful symbolized by incense filtering upward from the earth to heaven. And because they are seen receiving these prayers, we can reasonably conclude they were both directed to these saints in heaven and that they were initiated by the faithful living on earth. We also see this same phenomenon being performed by the angels in Revelation 8:3-4: And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God. And these prayers offered to God through the mediation of the angels are answered as symbolized by “thunder” and “lightning” that are then cast upon the earth through those prayers: Then the angel took the censer and filled it with fire from the altar and threw it on the earth; and there were peals of thunder, loud noises, flashes of lightning, and an earthquake. The bottom line is this: Both the faithful on earth and our brothers and sisters in heaven (and let’s not forget our “cousins,” the angels) are all acting just as Catholics would expect. Believers on earth are initiating prayers which the saints and angels in heaven are receiving. Is this the necromancy condemned in Deuteronomy and Isaiah? Absolutely not! This is New Testament Christianity. |
I agree. The meme “were just going to die and that will be the end of us” is exactly what non believers use as their “out” and reasoning for disbelief. It feeds into the belief of “eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow we die”. To them it’s a “what’s the risk” attitude. Satan has used that “did God really say” question with success for a long time now and hasn’t seen fit to change that since it works so well even on apparent believers. Pagans have for centuries designed a god to their liking. Those who purport to follow Christ would do well to take heed.
Indeed. And we see Paul give such warnings to the shepherds of the church at Ephesus.
Acts 20:
17 From Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called for the elders of the church. 18 And when they had come to him, he said to them: “You know, from the first day that I came to Asia, in what manner I always lived among you, 19 serving the Lord with all humility, with many tears and trials which happened to me by the plotting of the Jews; 20 how I kept back nothing that was helpful, but proclaimed it to you, and taught you publicly and from house to house, 21 testifying to Jews, and also to Greeks, repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. 22 And see, now I go bound in the spirit to Jerusalem, not knowing the things that will happen to me there, 23 except that the Holy Spirit testifies in every city, saying that chains and tribulations await me. 24 But none of these things move me; nor do I count my life dear to myself, so that I may finish my race with joy, and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God.
25 “And indeed, now I know that you all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, will see my face no more. 26 Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men. 27 For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God. 28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves. 31 Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.
Yes Sir, very sage advice. Our brother in Christ Peter said the following:
1 Peter 5:
6 Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in due time, 7 casting all your care upon Him, for He cares for you. 8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. 9 Resist him, steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same sufferings are experienced by your brotherhood in the world. 10 But may the God of all grace, who called us to His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a while, perfect, establish, strengthen, and settle you. 11 To Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.
I also find it noteworthy that the main passage argued is “who can destroy both body and soul in hell” ...
Are you going to appeal to a lexical study that understands the symantic range of ‘destroy’ in several ways ... like you did for ‘eternal?’ ...
I suspect not.
Ah yes ... I knew the Apocrypha had to come in there somewhere ...
Which men and where and when did this take place?
You said, “God’s “personality” also includes justice.”
I firmly agree with that statement. However, the God of the old and new testament, when brought to real anger, metes out justice by wiping out people, cities, towns, even entire civilizations. Not torturing them. Over and over and over again that is the message of the bible. You kindle the Lord’s anger to a certain point and you get destroyed, wiped out, removed from the face of the earth and, sometimes, history.
There’s no torture except when there is an opportunity to repent. Those that suffer the second death don’t have that option, so torture is both pointless and cruel.
Remember, sometimes “justice” is 90 days in jail, and sometimes it is the death penalty. The punishment fits the crime. And sin makes it impossible for one to spend eternity in the presence of God, without the cleansing blood of Christ. So without it, you don’t. You die. It’s called the second death. You are simply removed, once and for all, from the picture. Eternity moves on without you. That is your “punishment”.
When confronted with a new theological position (and yes this is relatively new) ... I always ask myself “What theological problem is this new teaching trying to solve?”
In this case I can confidently say there is no theological problem ... there is the false assumption that God, since He is a god of love, would never torture His creations for all eternity.
And the whole thing bothered me more and more as I matured spiritually more and more. At first, I thought, “good, that’ll teach those ba$tard$!” But as the love of Christ increased and I started praying for my enemies, a funny thing happened. Two things, actually.
First, I didn’t wish such a fate even on the most terrible of people. If I were God, I would not torture Hitler for all eternity. Rather, I’d “extinguish” him.
Second, as I learned more and more of God’s character, the torture meme lost credibility. And it’s not just about Him being “so mean” to torture people for all eternity. Also, does he really want “believers” that follow that path just cause they’re scared of him? Or is the Gospel what compels the true believer?
And then I started actually studying the subject. The rest is history.
So as a natural consequence, you must believe that Satan and his angels will be destroyed as well, that they will never endure eternal punishment either. Would you agree?
If “they have no rest day or night” means there are no breaks in their torment ... then the torment will never have a break, therefore, ITS ETERNAL!!
Maybe this is easier for me to understand than explain because I am a VERY black and white thinker. To a fault.
Christ died needlessly in your theology.
I also see we have fallen into mincing words ad-nausium. I am left to fall back on all the other words the bible uses to describe the fate of the lost and interpret which of the many meanings apply based on his personality as a loving AND just God illustrated by the entirety of the bible.
I’m left with this:
Adam and Eve were to spend time with God in the Garden but they sinned. They were banished from the garden and destined to live out the days of their life and then die. They could not spend eternity with Him because He hates sin and it can’t exist in His presence. Think of it as a nausiating smell to Him.
But God knew this would happen before he created them and had a plan already in place.
The plan was that the blood required as a disinfectant removing the odor would be spilled. The blood of His Son. All any human being has to do to get this freshening bath is to accept it as a free gift. In the process the human would begin a relationship with Jesus which would cause him to stop wallowing in the muck so much - but Jesus knew that, all of us occupying a human body, we would be constantly falling away even due to our best efforts. But as long as we accepted His blood, we would be good to one degree or another (1 Corinthians 3:15).
So, to leave out a lot of detail and cut to the quick...
So here’s the deal. There are three kinds of people:
1. Those that hear the word and accept it.
2. Those that hear the word and reject it.
3. Those that never heard the word.
Group number one is the one discussed in John 3:16 that will receive eternal life. Groups 2 and three fall into the “perish” part of the same verse. They did not avail themselves to God’s plan and will be destroyed, as animals are. Funny thing is that this week I was listening to the NT and it actually called fate of some the same as the animals.
That is God’s justice. And he is a God of his word. And what I just described is peppered throughout the bible, both testaments. And both fates are eternal. We are given a brief mist in this body and then the judgement. Group 1 chooses wisely. Group two chooses poorly. Group 3 never gets a choice.
None of what I say above about the fate of the non-believer is cast in stone in my brain, but that description gives you a feel for where I come from.
I don’t suggest anything.
And I suggest you go re-read your own posting ... the reason Pinnock and Russell had a problem with hell was exactly the reason I mentioned, they could not fashion a god in their mind that was moral ... and still just. That is no way to proceed in theological studies.
Some claim global warming is a hoax because they will lose their job if it is proved true. Others claim it is a hoax because they have examined the evidence and find it to be a hoax. I’m in the latter group on that one too.
It sounds like you were duped by some teacher or other who reads too much into symbolism while declaring a pox on those who have preached on the realities of Hell for 2000 years!
Now, was Jonah really saying he was in there “forever” or did forever refer to something other than the time he was there? The New Living Translation puts it this way “I sank down to the very roots of the mountains. I was imprisoned in the earth, whose gates lock shut forever. But you, O LORD my God, snatched me from the jaws of death!” That translation doesn’t specify that Jonah thought he was there forever. Context is everything isn’t it.
There is a different word used however in the Greek text of Revelation isn’t there. Now if you want to try to convince us that Jesus actually promised us something less than “everlasting life” then have at it.
In post 105 you did point us to a site that includes the apocrypha as part of it’s “evidence”.
You will simply have to scold God when He does what He said He would do.
It is a large part of the argument for the link you posted ... did you even read your own posted article?
What your left with is nothing more than a forced exegesis from a carnal understanding the ends with “did God really say?”
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