Posted on 11/30/2013 2:52:50 PM PST by Ripliancum
An ecumenical group of religious historians and other scholars will convene at the University of Notre Dame’s McKenna Hall on Dec. 5-6 (Thursday-Friday) for a conference titled “Catholics and Mormons: A New Dialogue.”
The conference will explore relationships among Catholics and Mormons as their churches are increasingly allied in common social, political and relief efforts. Its themes will include “The Lay of the Land: Contemporary Mormonism and Catholicism,” “Catholicism and Mormonism in Historical Context,” “Revelation: Scriptures, Traditions, and Authoritative Teachings” and “Theologies of Encounter, Unity, and Diversity.”
(Excerpt) Read more at news.nd.edu ...
Well said, Zak!
Um...
Yeah...
Sorry but it doesn't work that way... But thanks for playing.
Now if you wish to legitimize the first part of your statement you can join Christians at one of the various Christian Churches I am sure are near by. They can help bring you into the fold properly.
Huh?
Slow down Resty, you need to type slower...
I know what you mean. But they are a bloody persistent lot. The true believer are so convenience they will become gods they will stop at nothing, not even rational thought to achieve their goal. As far as the “operator” class Mormon, the ones who pull the strings and make sure the cash cow remains sacred and upright, well its their living you are arguing against. If the rabble see the truth they have to recruit more. Sadly it is hard to tell which is which, the pitch is the same whether they re selling the public or selling themselves...
You might say that J.S. was similar to (but not as accurate) as the sign language interperter at Mandela's funeral.
Mormons cannot be Christian until they denounce the false gospel known as the Book of Mormon and accept Jesus without the false trappings of Mormonism.
You are worried about embarrassment and NOT damnation?
"Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned;
and I will go still further and say, take this revelation, or any other revelation that the Lord has given,
and deny it in your feelings, and I promise that you will be damned.
Brigham Young - JoD 3:266 (July 14, 1855)
Fixed.
A 'christian' would speak up about the heresy that is Mormonism - you don't
Mormonism added the words of Brigham Young. You are DAMNED by his utterings.
Prove it wrong.
We'll ALL be waiting.
Do you worship the Christ who was divine from eternity past?
Do you worship the Christ who atoned for your personal sins prior to your conversion to Mormonism?
Do you worship the Christ who was born in Bethlehem, and not the Alma 7:14 Jerusalem-born Mormon jesus?
Do you worship the Christ who didn't get violent immediately after his death & drowned/smothered thousands of Book of Mormon character-villagers?
Do you worship per Doctrine & Covenants 20:19? 19 And gave unto them commandments that they should love and serve him, the only living and true God, and that he should be the only being whom they should worship.
IoW, is Heavenly Father the ONLY "being" you worship? And, if so, -- since you regard Jesus to be a separate being -- do you not then worship two beings?
bump over the 250 limit
Well said, Jim.
(Oh, you mean like nobody would write these things down on say...oh, I don't know..."gold plates"...so that somebody else could come along...receive these "gold plates"...and then never actually interpret these "gold plates' writings" directly because they were looking into a hat...and then these written-down gold-etched writings were further "written down" -- this time instead of gold-etched "reformed Egyptian"...King James English...intended for a group of people in say...oh, I don't know...let me toss out a time frame...say...19th century America...which didn't speak in everyday 17th century King James English)
Oh, we "get it."
www.exmormon.org
“Plain stupid” (Excerpted in full)
I am new here, but as a member of LDS Church, for the last 32 years, and a good faithful one at that, how do you get over, that you were so gullible to believe all this crap the church put out? I am angry, not at the church, but at myself. I believed in it so much, would have killed, if the Prophet said so. After reading many threads here, it has enlightened my perception of the cult, yes cult, with a face of honey. I lost a marriage over this religion, lost relationships with children, parents, and friends. Just wanting to explode, now that I leaving, feeling like I have been raped emotionally and spiritually, what I thought was true, is in fact a scam. Now what do I believe in? How have you people coped with such fraud? I am so lost. Now questions of life after death arises, other dilemmas that I had a concrete foothold on. I never drank, but boy, feel like getting drunk now....any suggestions on recovery from a great lie..anyone?
Subject:
Re: How do you get over the stupidity?
Date:
Dec 30 23:45
Author:
Nelly Normon
I was where you are about 18 months ago. I’m still working on getting over the lies and brainwashing. I also struggle with a child still in the morg. It does get better with time. Coming here has helped so much. It makes me feel sane when I think back to all the crap I believed in and know I am not alone. I think you worded it so well when you said you felt you were emotionally and spiritually raped. I think a lot of us feel that way. Hang in there. It does get better with time and life is so much better out of the cult.
Subject:
Re: How do you get over the stupidity?
Date:
Dec 30 23:47
Author:
penny poster
Welcome to the “light”side - but with this comes pain. One thing about this board is that there are alot of people who know EXACTLY how you feel and what you have been through and are going through and will go through! Others here will have very good advice for you - all I can say right now is take your time and be patient with yourself. Understand that the violation you feel is (a) justified and (b) normal, because you have been violated. Grief for the lost years and the other costs to you is normal. It sounds as though you paid a huge price for this organization. Coming back to this board for support is another way to help in your healing. If you are a convert, I understand how “stupid” you feel - because you actually CHOSE this. But it’s spiritually intoxicating to believe that you are one of the chosen few to have ALL the truth! It wasn’t stupidity - it was probably more like immature spiritual and emotional health for various reasons - at least for me that is. So, grieve for the lost years (just make the decision not to hand over to much more time to this organisation by hanging onto that anger and grief for longer than is necessary); learn to forgive yourself; and start enjoying life as it is meant to be lived!! There is a great big wonderful world out there - and it’s just waiting for you to accept it wholeheartedly (in a good way!). One thing you can be sure of at this site is lots of empathy and you could use that right now.
Subject:
When you know better, you do better....
Date:
Dec 30 23:54
Author:
integritymatters2me
That is what my good Christian friend is always telling me as she’s helped through the pain and lent me a shoulder to cry on when I’ve felt so stupid for being so blind. It’s not your fault. It’s the morg’s fault.
As far as alcohol goes, I’ve never been drunk (I’m no fan of puking or dealing with headaches) but I do enjoy a few glasses of good wine here and there. The French say that wine is bottled poetry. To me it such a beautiful and poetic substance, it is very hard for me to abuse. I savor it. I think it’s fun to get pumped up on lots of Espresso though....yeeee! LOL
This is a great place to help in your transition. Welcome!
Subject:
Understanding why you believed helps
Date:
Dec 31 00:30
Author:
Ex-Useful Idiot
I recommend getting Why People Believe Weird Things by Michael Shermer. It really helped me understand and that helped me get over feeling duped. Don’t beat yourself up over it - there are some pretty messed-up things you could have gotten caught-up in.
Subject:
Welcome! I too was a faithful member for also thirty two years...
Date:
Dec 31 00:34
Author:
tomthummim
Now, I am nearly a year into my journey OUT. I *refuse* to beat myself up for being “gullible” and believing all the bogusness such as sacred garments being a “shield and protection.”
Being a BIC child, there was NO *CHOICE*! That IS the DANGER of being born into a cult-type religion. Children thrive on parental Approval. If this means repeating “I know JS is a profit” etc.—soon they will receive great praise/reward for LYING these regurgitated words. My parents simply continued the 6-7 generation Tradition of belonging to the LDS faith. You and I both know how Taboo it is to question! They might as well have taught Flat Earth for a Family Home Evening lesson. I would have been Required to believed it—(that is until I reached Higher Education where I could dare to think and question for myself.)
Subject:
Time heals all wounds. Give yourself 2 years. You’ll get over it. Promise. nt
Subject:
Dittos on the rape...
Date:
Dec 31 01:03
Author:
SkyCloud
You are accurate to classify your feelings as rape... we all of us have felt that and we know where you are coming from. The good news is that you aren’t stupid. Just because someone has hard times in life, regardless of whether it is caused by situations stemming from “stupidity” that doesn’t make us stupid. The human brain is much like a computer.. I think it’s fair to say that we were just so over-loaded with programs which constantly required our attention or else a “crash” might occur, that we didn’t have time to analyze all the variable in our life and know what was causing what to happen. I like to call it sensory overload, on all fronts: emotional, physical, sexual, psychological. But now is a great time for you. You can take your time to explore everything inside. That’s basically what I’m doing now for myself. I bought myself a computer, and right now I’m compiling a huge database kind of journal and writing everything I can about my life, everything I remember, all my pictures, experiences, feelings, dreams, even just detached memories that float to my mind. I want to put everything out and let it be heard by my conscious mind. I’ve remembered so much since I started doing it, and I’m piecing this puzzle of my life together slowly trying to understand why I am the way I am. It’s therapeutic for me. I just feel like the Morg was the place where I always had feelings that no-one acknowledged,... and just imagine if my brain where a computer how many pending projects I have backing up my system!!!! I want to allow those feelings to finally complete their turn... so that’s how I’ve decided to cope with some of it. Also, I come here :-) And I’ve also started working part-time instead of full-time to let myself rest. Anyway, I hope you will find peace eventually. In fact, I’m sure you will find it in time. Coming out takes a while. I first found out definitively just 9 months ago.
Best wishes to you!
Subject:
Re: How do you get over the stupidity?
Date:
Dec 31 09:53
Author:
Leah
As a TBM, I could never understand why the GAs felt they needed such high-level security around them that they had to hire retired Mo FBI agents.
As an exmo I do understand it. There is a tremendous rage once people realize that they have been duped.
The GAs seem to understand this quite well also, hence the high security they surround themselves with.
Subject:
Now there’s something I didn’t know.
Date:
Dec 31 13:45
Author:
munchybotaz
I’d probably heard they had bodyguards, but didn’t know how many or who they are and certainly hadn’t thought about why they might need them.
Another possible reason is they don’t want people finding out about their private lives.
Thanks, Leah, for telling me something I’d like to know more about. That’s one reason I really like this board.
Subject:
the good news....
Date:
Dec 31 10:39
Author:
makesmyheadspin
Now it is up to you to figure out your own answers, what works for you, what makes sense to you, etc...all for yourself. Let nobody ever do your thinking for you again.
It’s called freedom. As with anything else, you have good days and bad days. You’ll make mistakes and not make mistakes, but either way, you will find out about you, who you are, what makes you who you are.
Don’t be so trusting to all, use condoms if you ever have sex, and just find your path in life. Now you are not being told what to do, how to think, and who you are to pretend to be. Now you are a whole human being. You are the true master of your ship now. You’ll have stormy seas and smooth sailing at various times.
Be glad you were one of the smart ones. You just saved the rest of your life.
Subject:
On my mission I found out...
Date:
Dec 31 11:04
Author:
cousin
about Joe Smiths 3 versions of the first vision and knew it was false. The result was I went to a hospital for the depression it caused me (while I was still on my mission). that degenerated to getting locked up in the section they reserve for what people usually term the “wackos”. This was all a result of the shock I felt at finding my entire belief system was a lie.
When I got back home it took me another 10 years to face the issue. I was fortunate that a non member doctor friend of mine told me about this website which saved my sanity and exposed me to the truth.
I have a lot of self-anger over it but I remind myself on how I became involved in the cult. A gullible mother had me baptized and I was forced to attend. Plus most of my family was in the cult also. The resulting brainwashing and guilt and fear kept me locked in even though every part of my brain was screaming this is bullshit when I was older.
They count on your young age or any emotional vulneralbilities you may have to snag you.
My having been sexually abused when I was young made me susceptible to their promises of happiness. Not having ever told anyone or gotten professional help I thought the “lord” would heal me if I did all the impossible things the church asked of me.
That part of me which wanted love and healing caused me to believe their bullshit and the fact that I had these wounds which made me vulnerable is very hard for me to forgive myself for.
I try to remember the adults who obediently indoctrinated me were not doing it to intentionally harm me, they were just reacting to the same crap fed to them.
Subject:
Don’t beat yourself up for being human.
Date:
Dec 31 12:11
Author:
Cheryl
We’ve all suffered enough at the hands of mormonism. No need to let it continue to haunt us needlessly.
The fact that you’ve faced whatever happened while you were in mormonism’s clutches now exonerates you. You looked it in the eye, saw that it was wrong for you, and made the difficult break. That means you’re a hero, not a villain.
Enjoy your freedom as soon as you’re willing and able. Congratulations on making it here, proving you’re a survivor, like the rest of us. Well done!
Subject:
You just do, after awhile...
Date:
Dec 31 12:30
Author:
Deenie, the dreaded single adult
If you’re like everyone else, you weren’t told all of the weirdness at the beginning.
At the beginning, it seemed like a very reasonable, family-oriented church. The weirdness came in tiny bits and pieces, and, before you knew it—there it was!
Or, if you grew up in the church, how could you have known differently?
Don’t blame yourself for not seeing past what you were given; 32 years ago, the internet did not exist, and research was difficult (if not impossible). Who would think that a CHURCH was lying to them?
You’ll feel better, in time.
:^)
Subject:
A few concrete suggestions that I hope will be helpful
Date:
Dec 31 13:07
Author:
munchybotaz
1. Identify and question all the rules you’ve ever been taught about what’s good and bad. Understand how you make those judgments and insist on solid reasons for making them in the future.
2. Identify and question your core beliefs about yourself and how they affect your behavior. If you have any or all of these, work on losing them:
a. Nothing really bad can happen to me, because I’m a good person and/or there’s this benevolent force that watches over me.
b. I deserve to be punished when I’m bad.
c. If something goes wrong, it’s probably at least partially my fault.
3. Develop the habit of questioning others’ behavior and motivation before your own.
4. Don’t assume that there’s a universal set of rules that everyone is or knows they should be playing by. In fact one to four of every hundred people, depending on which expert you choose to believe, actually lack the conscience that you just naturally operate by. They ignore “the rules” and either try to hurt others or just don’t care if they do. Joseph Smith was one of them, and I suspect every single one of his successors has been as well.
5. Watch out for the way of thinking where you believe what people say based on words and feelings, and insist on proof that something is right or true instead of proof that it is wrong or untrue.
6. Learn about and practice critical thinking. It’s a discipline with a specific set of skills that you’ve been conditioned to avoid.
7. Remember, skepticism is good. You might find an online skeptics’ group and just observe how the members think and talk about things. There are pompous asses everywhere - especially online, where many of them find the attention and respect they don’t get in the physical world - but those for whom skepticism is a way of life can teach you a lot.
The stupidity, as you call it, is really insidious. It got me bigtime, some 20 years after quitting the church. I don’t even think it was a church thing, necessarily, but the church didn’t help. I got a lot of dumb ideas from it and from parents who got their dumb ideas from it.
I just quit and never thought much about it until a profoundly awful, nearly ruinous life experience forced me to. The suggestions above are the product of that thinking. You have an advantage in that you’re thinking about it now, before someone else comes along and really sticks it to you. That’s what happened to me.
I felt stupid, too, until I discovered the vast secret club of people who’d had the same experience. Then I realized I’m just a person who was in a particular place at a particular time, with a particular set of beliefs about love and the world and myself, who happened to meet a person who took advantage of those beliefs.
If you were a convert, you could say the same thing about the church. If not, you were born into a cult started by a con man. It IS a scam. You know this already. For me, just admitting I’d been scammed was a major hurdle.
Smart people get scammed every day, in and out of the church. It can happen to anyone, and anyone who doesn’t know that is a prime target. Understanding how it happens and how susceptible you are is a serious advantage in life.
Subject:
How to get over the stupidity — instructions
Date:
Dec 31 13:13
Author:
KonaGold
You have a real challenge facing you. Your mind is cluttered up with all the Mormon stuff that you accumulated over many years. And you are feeling angry at yourself for not having recognized the scam many years sooner.
You can’t change the past, so mentally rehashing the past is useless. You need to start with the present moment. You need to learn to live in the “here and now”. You need to learn to keep your thinking and thoughts focused in the here and now.
In your brain, put in place a higher level monitor. That monitor should be keeping tabs on what you are thinking about. If the monitor detects that your thinking is going back to the past and Mormonism, then stop that line of thinking and get your thoughts back into the here and now.
You have to re-configure your life as a non-Mormon. Take it one hour at a time, one day at a time. Plan out what you will be doing for the next hour, and the next day. Plan what you will allow yourself to think about. Make sure that have plenty to think about in the here and now, and don’t let your thoughts return to Mormonism or the past.
If you don’t have an active recreational hobby, try to get one right now. Example: join a gym and take up swimming. Start spending a lot of time in the swimming pool, learning to swim well and gaining strength and stamina. This is just an example. Choose a hobby that interests you. It could be hiking, bicycling, skiing, golfing, fishing, hunting, sailing.
I assume that you are employed at some job. When you are at work, focus only on your job, and do it to the best of your ability. On your own personal time, spend a lot if it doing your new hobby. Volunteer in some community activity, such as Habitat for Humanity. Spend time there with other people doing useful volunteer work.
While doing all of the above activities, DO NOT let yourself think about the past or Mormonism. Initially it will be difficult to put these out of your mind, but with continuing effort and practice you will be able to do that. In the process you will re-configure your brain to live in the here and now and to only think about the here and now.
If you care to you can send me electronic mail using the address hethgaco at yahoo dot com . Put the subject line as the title of your original post on this thread.
Subject:
A book recommendation
Date:
Dec 31 13:15
Author:
Nebularry
Wow! You’re almost telling my story. When I stop to think of the 30 years I devoted to Mormonism just three words come to mind. Stupid! Stupid! Stupid! Though I have not lost family and friends, I have felt that same embarrassment at having been so utterly gullible as to believe such nonsense.
Shortly after leaving the church almost seven years ago, I found a book that has helped me immensely. It is “Living Without Religion” by Paul Kurtz. It is a slim, easily read volume but filled with valuable information that I’m sure will benefit you.
Best wishes on your new life and keep us posted as to your progress from time-to-time.
Subject:
Re: How do you get over the stupidity?
Date:
Dec 31 13:24
Author:
cl2
I agree with most of what has been said here. The things that really stand out to me is that the younger we were indoctrinated into this, the less chance we had of seeing the light sooner. I asked my gay husband this questions, too—WHY did he choose to stay active in the church knowing how they feel about gays? We both agreed that from infancy we were taught “good mormon” or “evil person.” We had no choice. There was no in between position to take, so we sucked it all up and kept doing it (he tried longer than I did).
Be grateful you saw the light sooner than later.
As for drinking—I took it upon myself to make the choice since they had taken it away from me—having taken my first drink in April of this year. I don’t like the stuff—and I’ve tried lots, but at least I TOOK BACK MY POWER.
AND the afterlife—once you let go of all their teachings about CK, degrees of glory, to me it seems really simple. I no longer worry about it. I believe in an afterlife—I just don’t know what it is—and I don’t worry about it. I feel I will be with who I am here with on this earth and who I love without jumping through all their hoops and having bogus special names for calling forth in the first resurrection. IF you really think about it, all the people who we would assume would go to the CK are not the people we would want to associate with anyway (if it were true). I actually feel better about facing death than I ever did as a mormon—I was always AFRAID that I wasn’t good enough.
I based all my HUGE life decisions on the teachings of the LDS faith. Somewhere along the way, things are finally falling into place for me.
Subject:
Just think that you’re smarter than the poor people still in it.
Date:
Dec 31 13:50
Author:
Headhurts
Only my mother is active in my family and I switch between feeling sorry for her because her dream of a Morgbot clone family has been dashed, and feeling angry at her for being so gullible.
The really sad thing is that without the church she would have very little to do so she desperately wants it all to be true.
I think it’s working for her, sort of like all the other false religions work for some people, but for me I am much happier out of it, especially since being gay I am hated and not wanted there anyway.
You need to find the truth within. That’s what Jesus said before his words were edited by the Catholics.
If you still believe in God after the Mormons had you, Imagine an omnipotent God, all powerful. Now think what an infinitely logical, rational and compassionate loving God would think of the way people act in the church. Worrying about symbology, magic polyester underwear, the hypocrisies, the thinly veiled hatred of those who do not conform, the insanity of believing gay people make a choice to be that way, claiming a book that is perfect as the cornerstone of your faith while it contains none of the ceremony you are made to feel is so important.
My God is more powerful than that. He knows what is in your heart. He can protect you without the undies. He is understanding of people with different personalities, sexuality, interests, desires. He does not judge people who are introverted as being less faithful because they refuse to give talks in Sunday school. He knows how hard these things can be for them. He is compassionate, not vengeful. HE understands that people are more important than money, buildings or impressions. He is more than any Mormon God can be.
He sees my struggle. HE knows how I was made. He sees Mormons hate me and judge me and ignore people like me because they have no real truth. HE will judge them for their actions, and I will testify.
The Mormons have no faith. They believe God needs ceremony and objects of symbology. He needs none of it. They give blessings for the sick and don’t expect instant healing. They have no faith in their own beliefs.
Be a kind person. That’s important. The ceremony isn’t. BE kind and whatever happens after you die can only be good.
Subject:
We all act according to our level of awareness at the time, and for conscious and unconscious reasons.
Date:
Jan 01 02:23
Author:
FreeAtLast
The feeling of stupidity for having ‘bought’ into Mormonism is the psychological result of your judgment about yourself as you were in the past with the awareness that you have today. It’s natural/human for people to think, “If only I had _________” and “I should have _________”. However, it’s impossible to re-do the past, and nothing is gained in mentally beating up on oneself, as others have indicated. Self-recrimination/guilt is a useless, time- and energy-wasting emotion. Each of us has done things in the past that we’d do differently if we had the understanding, courage, assertiveness, etc. that we have today.
We behave in certain ways for specific reasons, many of them unconscious to us at the time. For example, as children, we needed the love and approval of our parents (but we weren’t consciously or intellectually aware that we had that need), so we complied with what they told us to do because if we didn’t, they (in most cases) withdrew their love and approval, which felt terrible. As we grew older and individuated from our family ‘tribe’, we realized that we could think and act independently from what our parents wanted (or demanded) and survive on our own.
Nobody gets a User’s Manual for Life. We learn as we go, and increase in awareness, particularly self-awareness, as a result of experience. It takes years for us to get a good sense of who we are, what our truth is, and what we need for ourselves, particularly if we were raised in a controlling, cultic religion like Mormonism. You did the best you could at the time.
Why do intelligent Latter-day Saints participate in Mormonism even when they’re aware of serious problems involving the church’s foundational claims and teachings? Because of fear, primarily. Fear that their spouse and other family members and friends will reject them. Fear of losing the approval of Mormons and ‘God’, as defined by Mormonism. Fear of losing their ‘eternal family’ and ‘eternal salvation’. Fear of losing their job or being looked over for a promotion by their Mormon boss. Fear of what ‘God’ and ‘Satan’, as defined by Mormonism, will do to them (according to what the LDS Church has indoctrinated them to believe). And more. There’s a lot of fear in Mormonism.
Having lost a marriage and relationships with children, parents, and friends, you know from personal experience the fear, guilt/shame, and dysfunction that exists in Mormonism. Yet you acted with integrity to your true self anyway, to your truth at the core of your being/’soul’. There are hundreds of thousands of Latter-day Saints (and people in other cultic religious groups) who have not acted with the courage and integrity to the truth that you have. That reality says a great deal about the type of person you are. You’ve experienced very significant personal losses, yet you still keep participating in life. I hope that you see that you possess not only uncommon courage, but also uncommon resilience.
You asked, “Now what do I believe in?” My answer would be, “Believe in yourself”. You have left the small village of Mormonism and have embarked on an epic journey to explore and understand the world of you and life outside of the LDS Church. Your truth continues to lie within you.
You also asked, “How have you people cope[d] with such fraud?” Many people have felt a great sense of betrayal and loss when they learned of the LDS Church’s fraud, yet they kept going, despite the pain. Many people have felt angry at the LDS Church and its senior leadership, and channelled that anger into empowering action, such as confronting an abusive spouse or disrespectful church leader.
You posted about feeling lost; many people who left Mormonism felt that way for a time. Why? Because the LDS Church, their Mormon family ‘tribe’, and the LDS community psychologically conditioned them to base their self-esteem and self-concept on their church membership and all things Mormon. It’ll take time for you to find your ‘bearings’. You have the right to explore life, live by your mind and judgments, and do what you deem to be best for yourself.
It’s also natural to question everything that the LDS Church taught you to believe was ‘true’, such as the reality (according to many religions) that there is a life after death. Do people have ‘souls’? Does the human ‘spirit’ continue to exist after death? Do people’s ‘souls’ return to God? Many people have written about these subjects, and you might want to do some reading of different perspectives as part of your process of determining for yourself what you believe relative to ‘God’, life after death, etc.
Concerning drinking, I echo the advice provided by other ex-Mormons: Don’t go crazy with booze. You might want to try different alcoholic beverages (e.g., wine, beer, coolers) to find out what you like and don’t like. If you’ve never drunk before, you might want to start by doing some reading about wines (for example) and buy something not too expensive to begin your exploration of the world of alcohol. Or attend a wine-tasting event (but have a meal before going) and go with a trusted friend who will not allow you to get tipsy and drive. Be wise, and enjoy!
Part 2.
Subject:
Severe depression since finding out the “Truth”
Date:
Dec 31 14:37
Author:
anon
I am new to this board although my husband has been a part of it for quite some time. I am really struggling with feelings of severe depression since I have found out that everything that I have believed my whole life is a “lie”... a total and complete lie. I’m wondering if this is a normal response??
To give a little background, I was raised in an LDS family but not exactly what you would call “Nazi LDS”. My parents were both converts and were pretty liberal compared to most mormons that I know. I fully embraced the church, got married in the temple, everything I was supposed to do. My husband started researching the validity of the church and was very disappointed with what he found. I pretty much thought that Satan had gotten a hold of him and continued to take our kids to church, etc. etc. Eventually, one night I realized that I had been duped. I was devastated!!
About seven years ago right after the birth of my first child, my mom passed away. We were super close. I don’t think I ever grieved her death because I was so sure that if I lived righteously I would see her again. What a blow to figure out that the “together forever” we are taught our whole lives is just a selling point that the church uses to convert people.
Am I the only one that suffers from severe depression since finding out?
No wonder we’re the Prozac capitol.
Any advice?
Thanks!
Subject:
I understand
Date:
Dec 31 14:57
Author:
thatsmeinthecorner
I really feel for you. I had the same feelings. I cried all the time. I wanted to die. I promise you that it will get better over time. Time truly does heal all wounds - to some degree anyway. My husband and I read the following books “Mormon America”, “No Man Knows My History”, “Losing a Lost Tribe”, “Rough Stone Rolling”, “Insider’s View of Mormon Origins”. I think reading helps along with talking it out.
Today I am very happy - although not 100% recovered. I do feel more free. I feel like I am saving my children from further brainwashing. Stay close to your husband and kids. Another thing that helped me is exercise. Running out the frustration to the point of exhaustion and then gentle yoga was especially good for me. Do what works for you. It helps with the depression just as well as drugs will with no side effects.
Hang in there! :)
Subject:
It can be tough but it gets better
Date:
Dec 31 14:58
Author:
FeelingOfFreedom
It’s been a couple of years now for me.
I am still amazed by the whole thing. It’s difficult to comprehend - my whole world was defined by Mormonism and it just ... slipped away. My relationship with my wife was redefined (it’s worse). My children have had a tough time with it. I’ve lost a lot of friends from church.
I’m so much happier now though. I feel like a huge burden has been lifted from my shoulders. The best part was losing the oppressive guilt feelings and being able to redefine who I am and what I believe.
My advice is - for starters - breathe in, breathe out. Take it a day at a time. Spend some time on things you’ve been wanting to do. Live life more fully. Stay in the present. I didn’t realize it, but I used to live in the future, always working for some future goal that it turns out was ephemeral. Life is a miracle. Enjoy it to the fullest. This just might be all there is.
And one last word - get a nick so we can keep track of you. :)
Good luck.
-FoF
Subject:
Welcome...pick a board name for yourself and join in.....
Date:
Dec 31 15:06
Author:
wings
About the depression. I was not depressed really...it clarified many doubts I had. When I went to the Temple as a teen....that changed me. I had always dreamed of the Princess wedding that would surly take place in that big SLC Cathedral looking Temple. What a shock when pretending to slit my pretty little neck! The worst part was my whole family, and many people I respected for years in my ward were acting like this was on some sort of a normal level for a wedding. The doubts about many things festered after that day. I already struggled with the polygamy some of my family still talked about and the eternal polygamy for myself.
When I finally stood up to TSCC, what shattered me was the damage done to my family relationships due to my Apostasy.
My children were little and we lived in Utah. Getting them out was worth it. It was nearly 25 years before I found this board. I did not know anyone who was ex’d but me.
It has been almost 30 years. I forget unless I am around family and in Utah just how bizarre it all still is, even with the new “mainstreaming” LDS, Inc. attempts.
You are among friends here...
We all have been through that shock of being betrayed and lied to by something we so valued.
I hope you get the medical care for the depression, do not feel ashamed of it, be well-— and sending hugs to you.
Subject:
Grief and re-grieving. Finding the truth means losing something important.
Date:
Dec 31 15:08
Author:
Jenny
Hi, anon, and welcome.
I really feel for you and can see that you are sooo in a tough place right now. Sucks, doesn’t it?
Finding the truth about TSCC means losing an inner and outer support system. The beliefs that sustained you and the social network that held you. Bonus loss (if there is such a thing), hope of returning to your mother after this life. That’s a LOT of loss, anon. Depression, sadness, and a beginning to grieve for your mother. All so natural, but so painful, too.
It’s a lot to handle so no wonder so many of us put it off as long as we possibly could, shelving our questions, then shelving the answers until finally, the shelf came tumbling down and all the mason jars with the stuff that didn’t fit shattered and the truth came spilling out among the broken shards of glass.
Leaving isn’t always clean and fresh and lovely. It’s a loss.
There are stages to grief. Some folks stop for long periods in certain stages. Some people bounce around for a while and then move on. There’s no order or “right” way to lose something. There’s no way to force yourself to “get over it” or “get on with it”. Grief is individual.
Then there’s the times when we’re over something and an event in our life brings back an old grief. This is called re-grieving and sounds like some of what you’re experiencing. The big losses, like losing your mother (and it sounds like you really loved her and it was a great loss for you), are often re-grieved for many years, decades even. It’s okay. It’s our heart (whatever that is!) healing. Doesn’t feel like healing, though.
If this depression stays with you for months, you might find it helpful to talk with someone. Talk therapy, anti-depressants can really help. Sometimes it’s a temporary thing to get past things and sometimes it’s a lifelong thing. You’ll find out if you get good help.
This is such a tranformational time for you. Difficult yet exciting. But a burden, definitely. I really wish you all the best as you move onward.
Jenny
Subject:
It will get better
Date:
Dec 31 15:26
Author:
moses
I wish I had some perfect set of steps I could give you about how to get through this but I don’t. This is all so unique to each person in terms of each one’s particular challenges in dealing with this.
Keep breathing. Apart from that I would look for people who can relate to the particulars of your experience. One person may understand one aspect of your experience, another person some other aspect.
As for the “eternal families” idea, none of us knows what happens after death. As one who has chosen to continue to believe in an afterlife and in God, I have chosen to believe that God will not punish someone for setting aside falsehood and moving toward truth. Therefore, if there is an afterlife, your movement toward more truthful ways of knowing will eventually bring you more peace and joy in your life, and in the life to come.
Good luck and, (if you choose to believe in God), God bless!
Subject:
You are not alone
Date:
Dec 31 15:27
Author:
SkyCloud
Big hugs for you! You are entirely justified in feeling depression. This is even good. I think if anyone can live through the Morg and come out without severe emotional damage, then they are either and android or a rock. I’ve cried my eyes out SSSOOO much. Night after night after unbearable night. I would just feel myself start to cry again, and I would just be so exhausted and think to myself “Oh no, not again.. I can’t live through any more tears. It’s too painful..” but I had no control and I would just shake uncontrollably. It lasted for many many months... even more than a year. My exit story is on the board under the name KyraGreenmoon (I changed my name when I thought it had been compromised by spies.)
You are not alone in feeling what you feel. We are survivors. You will continue to find out many many things along the way. The pieces will all fall into place as your brain starts to process everything. It takes a long time. So just go slow, and be easy on yourself. Treat yourself to good things. Explore your new-found freedom. What will your next step be? Now YOU can choose! Think of all the good things that are gone now forever: no more wasted tithing money, no more getting up early on Sunday when you need a day to sleep in, no more Church callings which drain your life energy, no more guilt trips about being a bad person, no more being the Church’s bitch, etc, etc, etc.
I already wrote to PlainStupid in a different post that for me it’s very therapeutic to collect all my past memories or any thoughts that suddenly pop into my mind about my life, to just write them down and collect them into a journal so that I can try to piece together my emotions and what I was feeling, am feeling, so that I can understand myself better. So many things running in my mind now and I want to put them to rest. So I just work part-time now and spend most my time writing on my computer, or surfing the net to get information, or just other stuff like that. Also to rest physically from the hell I was going through.
But it gets better. It really does. Give yourself 2 years and life will BE amazing. Really. Sending you the warmest of wishes and hope that life treats you good. You deserve it, after all! :-)
Subject:
It takes time to adjust. The challenges now will give you strength as you grow and to enjoy your newfound freedom to think and learn without Mormon censureship and fear of imaginary, eternal regret. n/t
Date:
Dec 31 15:31
Author:
G. Michael Pace
Subject:
For all of you lurking critics of RfM, this post is a perfect example of the need for a recovery website.
Date:
Dec 31 15:32
Author:
GQ Cannonball
I wish you the best, anon. I left the faith fifteen years ago. My wife followed two years later. You’ll go through some challenges, but it’s been well worth it for us. Just remember through all of your pain and challenges that your life is for you to determine. The beautiful (and maybe scary) thing is that it is your choice now.
Myself, I was an atheist for five years after leaving, and since have explored a variety of spiritual teachings to come up with my own individual view of the world. What’s cool too is that I’ve learned that each day brings a different aspect of my personality and choices. Some days I just want to meditate, hang with my kids, and be very introspective and spiritual. Other days, I want to hit the town and act like an 18 yr old...with all the nonsense, brashness, and humor that comes with it. On those days, I warn my wife, she wishes me the best and hopes that I don’t get arrested. :)
In my TBM days, those variances were to be avoided. Now I’m excited to see what my experiences bring out of me, and I don’t apologize for any of it. Wherever you choose to go with things, I wish you the best for you and your familiy.
Subject:
Re: Severe depression since finding out the “Truth”
Date:
Dec 31 15:36
Author:
JBug
Finding out it was all a lie actually made me feel better—after a number of years in and out of activity in TSCC, always thinking it was ME, and my fault for not being able to be perfect. It is so liberating to realize it is all a bunch of hogwash. I am a convert. You are not and that is probably much much more difficult. I hope you cheer up and live your life to make you and your loved ones happy and not to just obey a money-grubbing cult! Think of it as true freedom!!
Subject:
You’ll need to visit your personal ‘reservoir’ of grief and sadness as often as it takes to ‘empty’ it.
Date:
Dec 31 16:25
Author:
FreeAtLast
You’ve experienced two significant losses: Your life/self-concept/psychological foundation/belief system as a Latter-day Saint, and your mother. When there’s been great loss, it’s natural for people to feel emotionally and psychologically wounded. Some people are quite sensitive, and experience sadness and grief more profoundly. You might want to seek out a non-LDS therapist/counsellor to discuss what’s been going on in your life.
Grieving, although difficult to do/experience, is necessary for our personal growth. Grieving helps us become ‘unstuck’ in life and deepens our humanity. It’s the experience of being stuck that results in depression. Many mental health professionals regard depression as a ‘cry of the soul’. Not ‘soul’ in a religious context, but ‘soul’ in the context of one’s true self and their humanity. In Mormonism, that self gets ‘buried’ beneath many layers of unhealthy beliefs that are the result of church indoctrination and psychological conditioning in the LDS ‘tribe’.
You’re in a new ‘zone’ now: post-Mormonism. You cannot go back to the LDS ‘Wonderland’ because you’ve awakened to the hard truth about Mormonism: It’s been based on a deception since the beginning. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is fundamentally an immoral organization. It actively deceives people about Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, and other aspects of Mormonism in order to bolster their faith about the organization and its senior leadership (past and present). There is a mountain of historical and scientific evidence that does not support foundational claims and teachings of the LDS Church that is never going away.
You need to continue to move forward in your post-Mormonism life. Your personal growth and psychological and emotional well-being depends on it. You have stepped outside of the small village of Mormonism and have a vast continent of you and Life to explore.
You have the right to live fully by your mind and judgments. You have the right to question everything that you were taught was ‘true’, ‘right’, and ‘the will of God’. You have the right to think critically and rationally about Mormon beliefs and to develop your own system of values by which to govern your behavior. You have the right to question everything that you’ve believed about God, Jesus, and other matters related to religion and spirituality. You have the right to determine for yourself if God is real or not, and if you conclude that there is some sort of ‘higher power’, what constitutes ‘God’.
Mormonism is fundamentally a fear-based religion, with a core message of: Comply, or you will suffer in this life and after death. Fear-, guilt-, and shame-inducing ‘spiritual’ teachings have been used for generations in the LDS Church to psychologically coerce members to obey/do what the church and Mormon ‘tribe’ have wanted. Mormonism is about religiosity and unquestioning obedience, which keeps members psychologically and spiritually immature. To reach their full potential as an individual and human being, Mormons have to leave the LDS Church.
Don’t hesitate to post on this board as often as you feel you need to. We, the ex-Mormon community, can relate, each in our own way and to a certain degree, to what you’ve been going through. We’re here to provide you with support. As well, if you live in UT, there is at least one ex-Mormon support group that meets monthly in SLC (and perhaps other groups elsewhere in the state). You might want to do a post to ask for details.
Best wishes.
Subject:
Re: You’ll need to visit your personal ‘reservoir’ of grief and sadness as often as it takes to ‘empty’ it.
Date:
Dec 31 16:37
Author:
Emma
I have been seeing a therapist which helps on some aspects. She is an atheist (which I did not know before I saw her), which is OK by me except I still want to cling to the hope that I will see my mom again. Maybe that sounds silly, I don’t know, but I still want to have hope.
Subject:
No one is an authority on what happens after death.
Date:
Dec 31 20:31
Author:
Prof. Plum
Is there a continuation of a person’s ‘soul’ after death? Based on the information from interviews with people who have clinicially died collected by Dr. Raymond Moody over the past generation, the answer is yes (ref. http://www.lifeafterlife.com). However, to the best of my knowledge, scientists haven’t collected any proof that there’s a continuation of ‘consciousness’ after death. Certainly, the brain and other organs cease to function at the time of death. What is the ultimate source of the human mind and psyche? ‘God’? No one knows.
Do any of the non-physical characteristics of a person (e.g., their unique personality) transcend death? Do deceased people eventually return to ‘God’? Is ‘God’ a reality? There are countless perspectives of what constitutes ‘God’; no one is an authority.
According to a no. of people interviewed by Dr. Moody, after they died, their ‘souls’ were met by ‘souls’ of loved ones (e.g., family members) in some sort of ‘spiritual realm’. Even children who have been clinically dead have reported meeting deceased relatives. Do all people who have clinically died have a near death experience? Based on what I’ve read, the answer is no. Why not? I don’t know, and I think that someone like Dr. Moody doesn’t know either.
In terms of your mother, I see no reason why you shouldn’t hope that after you die, your ‘soul’ will be re-united with hers. Is her ‘soul’ aware of you on a daily basis? Who can say with any degree of authority? I see no harm in keeping an open mind. Love is a powerful ‘force’ that binds mothers to their children during life. Does familial love transcend death? Based on what people have told Dr. Moody, the answer is yes.
Subject:
We will see whatever we can imagine—see in our imagination, that is.
Date:
Jan 01 02:34
Author:
clairvoyeur
And face it, how well do we “see” others, even close relatives, while they’re alive? Our perception of EVERYONE is selective, biased, and personally distorted: we see what we ‘want’ to see of others—how they meet our needs.
I doubt if my own mother “IS” the person she appears to be in my picture of how she is in relationship to ME (me, me). Certainly that’s different from how my father sees her, how her students see her (she’s a teacher). how her political antagonists see her, or how she sees herself. So,,,it’s not far-fetched to say that the “mother” I recognize is my particular version of her.
Subject:
Thank You all for your advice
Date:
Dec 31 16:31
Author:
Emma
I appreciate all of your advice. I also agree with a lot of it. I do think exercise helps a lot, I used to be a runner until I became so depressed. I’ve also gained about 30 lbs. which really adds to the depression.
I’m grateful that this site is here for people like me that can come and express how they really feel without feeling like a total nut job.
Thank You again!
I will be going by the screen name Emma for now.
Subject:
Hey, Emma! Love the name!
Date:
Dec 31 16:36
Author:
Jenny
PS-We were nutjobs when we were holding to Joe’s iron rod. Depression, Anger, everything after, was NORMAL!
Again, best to you.
jenny
Subject:
Hugs for you Emma!
Date:
Dec 31 16:58
Author:
seabreeze
I wasn’t even raised as a mormon, but as a convert I went through much depression when I left the church. In my case, when I left the Morg I also stopped believing in any God. I think *that* loss was even greater than the loss of the church. I am currently agnostic. (There may or may not be a god, but really who cares? And if there is a god, he’s/she’s/it’s probably nothing like any of us have imagined and it certainly isn’t sitting in judgement of us.)
Give yourself time to breathe, to think, to digest it all. There’s no rush, no timetable. Most importantly, try to get outside and walk everyday (even if you live where it snows!) Just don’t sit in the house! Take care of yourself.
Subject:
Re: Severe depression since finding out the “Truth”
Date:
Dec 31 21:59
Author:
reve
Rejoice that you aren’t a slave to a demanding cult any longer!
All Christian religions believe that we will be with our loved ones again.
The Mormon cult is NOT the one gateway to Heaven, they just try to fool people into paying and obeying more than others.
Mormonism is a crock, no sense wasting more time on depressin. Enjoy your life instead.
Subject:
Welcome,Emma, I can relate....
Date:
Jan 01 02:06
Author:
integritymatters2me
only I’m the first to come out in my family and my TBM DH has threatened to divorce me over it. But I wouldn’t go back to being a 2nd class citizen in a male dominated church for anything in the world! Figure out what *you* want to do with your life and enjoy. It does get better. I’ve been out for 5 months and already am feeling sooo much better. Best of luck to you and welcome again!
Subject:
The truth will set you free...
Date:
Jan 01 02:27
Author:
apostate
but first it will piss you off.
When I first started to realize, many nights I would cry in bed at 2:00 in the morning, unable to sleep. When I finally gathered the courage to become “inactive”, I felt less depressed because the church wasn’t hanging over my head all the time.
I found a support group here in SLC and have been able to work through my depression and anger. I have since “resigned”.
I just brought my 2nd baby home and I’m happy to report that neither of my children will have the influence of the LDS church in their lives. That makes it all worth it for me.
The depression is completely normal. It must be endured. But you CAN get through it and have a better life now that you know the truth. You have been given a rare gift. Never forget that.
And read “Combatting Cult Mind Control” by Steve Hassan. This book helped me to understand why I was feeling what I was feeling and how cults work. It doesn’t mention Mormonism, but you can’t help but notice the parallels.
Good luck.
Subject:
Hang in there anon
Date:
Jan 01 07:27
Author:
Aussie
Hey anon,
I know exactly what you’re going through. I too discovered recently that the church was not true (more about that next week!) Depression is something that I have suffered before but nothing like this time around. I toyed with the idea of jumping off a building. I just felt like ending it all and thought that I could at least make the last couple of seconds a buzz.
Since then I have come to realise that having no religion is much more spiritually rewarding than belonging to a cult. Now I look at the mysteries of the world and my mind boggles. I just feel so grateful that I have this life on Earth. So many people get caught up preparing for their life in heaven that they never really have a life on Earth. It’s really tragic.
Follow your own moral compass, you’ll be surprised by how strong it is, and be positive. Don’t waste time, get out there and live a life worth living today! Today is a perfect day for it too... Happy New Year!
Subject:
Recovery
Date:
Jan 06, 2007
Author:
Mesa Verde
I know when I first realized how corrupted it all was my head spun, my heart raced and then the feelings overwhelmed me. It took a while for the rational part of my mind to take over. The old scripts and programming come through from time to time, upsetting my new equilibrium. It’s been just over a couple of months since waking up and leaving. I’d say that I needed every week of that to shake off the shackles and the blinders I’d clung so tightly to. First thing I did was to box up every Mormon item and stow it away (just in case I thought in later years it wasn’t all that bad).
It is very emotional and draining in the beginning because your worldview just got turned on its ear. With time and distance you can make more sense of things and the lies are more clear and defined. You are able to sort through your connections to the unreal and unbelievable. The key is to distance yourself from the church and think for yourself. The “anti” sites are not poison, they are information that shows the church in its true light. The reason the church counsels its members to avoid it is that with correct knowledge and information the members would leave in droves. The church has power as long as members blindly obey. Obedience without content.
After my decision to leave I have felt the weight of 30 some years of delusion lift from my mind and spirit. Today, I truly feel free. There are still painful wounds that fester, anger for lost time and money. I can only be thankful I did find this website and others that showed me the truth of the cult. Don’t be afraid to call it what it is. It is a cult that depends on hiding and changing its history to meet circumstances - all the while claiming infallibility.
I come here to help myself to heal from the past and to go on with my future. Good luck and remember that you don’t have to answer the door if they knock or even talk to them if they stop you in the street. You have the right to tell them you are too busy right now and say goodbye. Turn around and leave. Just because they want to talk to you (change your mind), does not mean you have to comply. You are an adult and can say no. Would you talk to a rapist? I equate their tactics to someone of the same caliber of a rapist or thief. They will try to corner you with the hooks to your psyche: you need to pray, you are possessed by an evil spirit, you are being led to hell, Satan is sifting you, read the scriptures, come to sacrament at least. They hope that by “getting” you to acquiesce to one you will be open to their programming again. Stay far away. Far away.
take care
Mesa Verde
Recovery from Mormonism - The Mormon Church www.exmormon.org
Listing of additional short Topics | Main Page
http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon457.htm
I addressed this nonsense back on an Oct. 31 FR thread.
On that thread, I cited ex-Mormon Latayne Colvett Scott's 1979 book, The Mormon Mirage: A Former Mormon Tells Why She Left the Church (Zondervan)
On p. 194, Scott highlights the assembly-line like process teens like her would be used for in these Mormon temple proxy baptisms...note the bold-faced portion below:
"When my name was called, I went down into the water. The baptizing elder turned me around so that he could see a large screen, something like an electric football scoreboard, which he looked at over my shoulder. On top of the screen was my name, and below it a name I don't remember, but which I'll say was Elizabeth Anderson. 'Sister Celeste Latayne Colvett,' he said, looking at the screen, 'having been commissioned of Jesus Christ, I baptize you, for and in behalf of Elizabeth Anderson, who is dead, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.' Then he quickly dropped his right arm from the square and lowered me beneath the water. As I was regaining my footing (you learn after the third or fourth time to put one foot slightly behind the other to help you get back out of the water) he had already begun the same prayer, inserting this time the name of another dead woman which had flashed onto the screen behind me. Fifteen consecutive baptisms were performed with me as proxy in a matter of about three minutes. As I left the font, another proxy was preparing to be baptized. Then I was led into a 'confirmation room' where a man sat on a high stool with a chair near his knees. I sat on the chair, my back to him, and he and several other elders placed heir hands heavily upon my head while he pronounced this prayer: 'Sister Celeste Latayne Colvett, in the name of Jesus Christ, we lay our hands upon your head for and in behalf of Elizabeth Anderson, who is dead, and confirm you a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints..." (The Mormon Mirage, p. 194)
What's of significant interest in the "confirmation room" process Scott wrote about is that many Mormons have said that this proxy Baptism process offers a "choice" in which spirits on the other can reject becoming Mormons. Yet, an "automatic" confirmation process into accepted membership in the Church has been part and parcel of the proxy baptisms--indeed Lds leaders "confirm" dead souls as "members of the church."
I mean, what? You Mormons have a "living prophet" who supposedly hears EVERYTHING the Lord does (Mormons oft' miscite Amos 3:7 to prove that) -- and yet you don't know about "rejections" of the Mormon proxy baptisms on the other side of the veil in the Spirit world? Your "fast-food" like assembly-line baptismal flows are just automated membership processes?
bfl
Let's just say, for argument-sake, that the Mormon Church has 20% of all recorded info needed for already conducted (or about to be done) proxy baptisms for people living in the 20th century...and that with enough research, they could bump that up to 1/3rd to even 40%
And then, let's knock that down by 5% for each previous century:
* The Lds church has 15% of all needed info for the 19th century...and could more than double that...
* The Lds church has 10% of all needed info for the 17th century...and could triple that...
* The Lds church has 5% of all needed info for the 16th century...and could quadruple that...
* The Lds church has 1% of all needed info for the 15th century...and could somehow multiply that by 20 times with the right "finds"...
But ya know, we then get into pre-Gutenberg times...with also poor preservation components...with even less world-wide literacy to even write down the requisite info the Mormon Church NEEDS to conduct proxy baptisms. And not only for those early times, but the Mormon Church doesn't even have a "majority" handle (& will NEVER have that) for people who have lived between the 15th and 20th centuries!!!
Bottom-line Stormie?? Your very comments above equally apply to all of these "no-show" people on the "record" of having ever existed!
Go ahead, Stormie...tell us...what % of Romans living during the time Christ does the Mormon church have enough info on to proxy baptize them? Tell us, Stormie!
How about ALL of the BILLIONS of others the Mormon Church has no knowledge of -- and will NEVER know? Why, it wasn't their fault that they were either illiterate...or died in their pre-teen years and weren't noted, or that they were given a nickname that isn't good enough to baptize with since Mormons need the actual "birth name."
How 'fair' is it for the Mormon gods to demand that people have an actual...
...paper trail
...or scroll trail
...or gold-etched plate trail
...or full birth name and birthdate, etc. scratched in some bark still in existence (sorry, initials aren't enough for the Mormon gods)...
...as so-called "proof" to the Mormon gods that they ever lived?
What kind of Gospel "Justice" is that?
Tell us, Stormie, exactly how all these "no names" are "to have their fair chance of hearing the truth?"
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