Examine Yourselves Whether You Be in the Faith, Part 1

GTY.org ^ | September 24, 1978 | John MacArthur

[redleghunter]

Paul calls for an examination in another passage and I want you to notice this. It's the last chapter of II Corinthians, Chapter 13, and verse 5, I want you to note what it says, Il Corinthians 13:5, just the first sentence, "'Examine yourselves, whether you are in the faith; (prove it, is what he's saying) prove yourselves." You say to someone "are you a Christian?" 'Yes.' What do you base that on? 'Well so many years ago I made a decision.' That means nothing. The Bible never verifies anybodies salvation on the basis of the past, It's always on the basis of the present, And if you don't have the evident proof of real salvation in your life now, there's a very real possibility you're not a Christian at all, no matter what happened in the past. So examine yourself, to se whether you are in the faith prove yourself. You say John' how do do that? How do I know if I'm really a Christian? I believe! (Maybe you've even been baptized.) I go to church, I, think I'm a Christian.' Look with me Matthew Chapter 5 and let's find out. When Jesus had arrived on the scene, the Jews had already decided what right-living was all about. They had already built their own code. They had already developed their own system, and they had it pretty cu and dried and pretty well laid out that this is what it was to be holy, and it was all external, it was all self-righteousness and works, and Jesus came and shattered that thing and He said I want to give you a new standard for living.

[Iscool]

I believe it is part of the process of God working in the sinner who believes. God is doing the work of convicting the heart of the sinner.

I agree...Grace was available, it just wasn't the gospel in Eph. 2 that was available...

[redleghunter]

What gospel do you think Peter preached in Acts 10 to Cornelius the Gentile? Was it Grace or repentance.

Paul later in Acts in his sermons (after chapter 15-Jerusalem council) tells the hearers both Jew and Greek to repent. That can be found in Acts 17 and Acts 20. Then when Paul heads back to Jerusalem he summarizes his ministry by saying he preached all should repent. That can be found in Acts 26.

Then we have Paul saying below they all preach the same gospel:

1 Corinthians 15:5-11 NASB

and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also. For I am the least of the apostles, and not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me. Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.

Isn’t Paul admitting here that all aforementioned preached the same Gospel?

We know that Paul said his commission was not to baptize. I give that double barrels to the Romans. However 1 Corinthians still tells us believers are baptized in water. What changed? Did Peter institute the first believers baptism with Cornelius before Paul started his ministry?

By your view of two gospels, I am assuming you believe the Holy Spirit indwelled both repentance kingdom gospel Jews and Grace gospel believers? Does that make them one or two bodies in Christ? Paul spoke a lot about one Head which is Christ and we are the members of His Body.

I will offer that if we look closely at the historical event of Pentecost and understand the scriptures Peter quotes and links to the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, it is the same Gospel clearly outlined by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15. Same if we look closely at Acts 3. Later we see Philip leading the Ethiopian to Christ using Isaiah 53. Some call Isaiah 53 the Gospel according to Isaiah. The scriptural evidence is there is one Christ, one gospel (the one He gave see Luke 24), one Holy Spirit and One Body.

I will ask again...by your view when does the Grace dispensation replace the “kingdom” dispensation? I have been given multiple allusions, hints etc, but nothing solid.

Finally what do we do with these words from Jesus Christ in Luke 24:

46 Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And you are witnesses of these things. (NKJV)

Do we ignore the Words of Jesus Christ (Yeshua HaMashiach) or think “all nations” does not mean “all nations.” What do I see from examinining the scriptures in the OT and NT? That Peter and Paul and John are all faithful and true in executing our Lord and Savior’s mission statement. They follow it to the very jot and tittle and do not deviate.

Or do you believe the 4 Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are only for the circumcised?

[redleghunter]

It was also at that Council that Peter and the 11 realized that the nation Israel was NOT going to accept Christ as their Messiah, and thus the eminent return of Christ to set up the Kingdom. They realized that something else was taking place, that explained the continued absence of Christ: Paul. And his message of the grace of God, the dispensation of the grace of God. THAT explained Christ’s absence, when, on the day of Pentecost, everything had been in place, according to the prophecy of Joel, and the kingdom was offered to Israel. Acts 15 marks the fading away of Israel and her prophecies, and the ramping up of the dispensation of grace. See Gal. Chapter 2. What was not clear at the beginning of Acts, the day of Pentecost, the stoning of Stephen, and the raising up of Paul, was made CLEAR at that council. And so the revelations from Christ to Paul continued, the body grew, Israel faded, until Acts 28 when she is blinded and set aside and officially becomes Lo Ammi, “not my people”. What Peter, James and John learned about the grace of God and the preaching of the cross, and the shed blood of Christ for the remission of sins they learned from Paul, Gal. Chapter 2.

Completely incomplete statement and inaccurate. In Galatians 2 Paul clearly chided the Judaizers for their influence in the Jerusalem church. It was clear these influences were trying to bring in elements of the ceremonial laws, which were clearly fulfilled by Christ Jesus. Paul later states in Galatians 5:9 that this was leaven, which means evil and which means Peter and the 11 were not practicing such but not ridding the Jerusalem church as they should. It has nothing to do with a new dispensation or separate practices by Jewish believers in Christ Jesus.

Peter did not need Paul to teach him about Grace, shed Blood of Jesus Christ and the cross! They were witnesses to it! Paul later in 1 Corinthians 15 even says they all preach the same Gospel.

[redleghunter]

One of the things I believe is that too many Protestants as well as the Catholics think that the “church” has basically replaced Israel and that Israel is no longer a nation that God will deal with separately again. Without the understanding that there are still seven years of the 490 years promised them and those seven years will be the seven year tribulation they can’t understand.

I clearly understand dispensations. Especially when there is clear scriptural evidence of a change in program. Israel was put aside but will be dealt with again. They were put aside right here in Matthew 23:

37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”

That right there in red letters from Jesus Christ tells us at that point, Israel was set aside. Set aside until "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!" Not Acts 15 or sooner or later anywhere in Acts. Right there in Matthew's Gospel.

[redleghunter]

I don’t refute at all what you said. I am not setting wire diagrams. Please see the progression of this thread.

[redleghunter]

What? Grace was available when Jesus Christ died and rose again.

[CynicalBear]

>>Paul already completed a missionary journey before the Jerusalem council.<<

Yes he did and it says in the first verses of that chapter that the reason they called for that council was because he was coming across people who were teaching following the Jewish laws so there was “dissension and disputation”. That’s how Acts 15 starts out so there was definitely something different with what Paul was teaching. That council was where they discussed what was needed for salvation.

Many were still saying the laws of Moses had to be followed and they had to be circumcised etc. Obviously the teaching to that point had still been to the Jewish customs and mindset. It was after some discussion which was obviously a little contentious thus the words “much disputing”. It’s not difficult to see that there was something different between what Paul was preaching and what the others were preaching. This is the council they called to determine what was going on.

Finally it was James who stood and made the declaration only “that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood” and then they decided to send letters to all the churches saying “ Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment”.

There it’s obvious that those who had gone out from the apostles had been teaching to follow the old “rules” which they now wanted stopped. It’s obvious by all of that that like you say Paul had completed a missionary journey but there was a difference in what he was teaching thus the call for a council to straighten things out.

>> Several times I have asked for when this new revelation was put into action<<

Like I showed above. Paul was already teaching salvation by grace before the council but not the others to the extent he was. The others were still holding to some of the Jewish “rules”. This, by the way is understandable, because up to the time of Paul the focus was still on the Jews to the greatest extent as I showed in a previous post. The twelve apostles had been taught by Jesus who was still following all Jewish customs. Those “customs” would be hard to let go of I would think.

[CynicalBear]

>>so far I have received the following:<<

Acts 9
That is where Paul is first converted so I can see where someone might say that’s were it began and he did start preaching in Damascus at that point.

Acts 28
Paul did write many of the epistles from prison but like I said. He had been preaching the same since he started thus the council at Jerusalem.

Acts 13
That is where the Holy Ghost said “Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.” That was simply the official notice if you will that Paul was especially called.

Acts 15
The council at Jerusalem where, like I showed in previous post, the entire council realized that a change had indeed occurred.

Hope that makes sense and helps.

[CynicalBear]

>>What gospel do you think Peter preached in Acts 10 to Cornelius the Gentile? Was it Grace or repentance.<<

Look closely at that chapter. Peter first said “That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;”. But as he continued talking with NO mention of repentance but only the word “To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.” Immediately after which “the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word”. Now look at the next verse.

“And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.” Peter and those with him were astonished at how the Holy Ghost had fallen on them right after “whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins”. They were not expecting that. It’s obvious that is not what Peter expected. I believe it was at that point that Peter realized that all the “rules” they thought they had to follow didn’t apply any more. That’s why he rose to speak at the council of Jerusalem in Paul’s support.

>>That can be found in Acts 17 and Acts 20.<<

There Paul is talking to the Jews and those Gentiles who had converted to the Jewish faith. We know that those Gentiles had converted or they wouldn’t have been in the synagogue. In Chapter 20 he says this, “Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.” Can you tell me for sure that he didn’t say to the Jews “repentance” and to the Greeks “faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ”? In the Greek the words are not in the order they are in English so I’m not sure we can really tell from that verse.

>>That can be found in Acts 26.<<

There again, Paul is defending himself in front of King Agrippa after the Jews had accused him and he wanted to go before the king. He was defending himself because of accusations by the Jews who understood repentance. He was using their language if you will.

>>Then we have Paul saying below they all preach the same gospel<<

By the time he wrote to the Corinthians they were. That was written after the council of Jerusalem. And again I will say the use of “different gospel” is in my opinion the wrong terminology to use with regard to what Paul taught. It’s the same gospel, different dispensation.<<

It's going on 1am here and I am really tired. I will respond to the rest of your post and the others tomorrow if that's all right.

[redleghunter]

There is no evidence Peter and the 11 were following Jewish ceremonial laws that were clearly fulfilled by Jesus Christ. Paul in Galatians recounting the council called what was present "leaven." That means there were evil influences not ones seen as "ok." Paul presents that record and Peter agrees. There is no indication two gospels were being preached. We do leave Acts 15 and Galatians with the understanding that there were Jews who were pestering and accusing other Jews and Gentiles for not following the ceremonial laws. Paul rightly points out this is error for all of them because Jesus Christ is the fulfillment. Peter knew this from the very beginning because he walked with Christ and witnessed His death and resurrection. What is clear is that Peter affirms both the Jews and Gentiles were saved the very same way here in Acts 15:

“Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”

Peter is talking about Cornelius. By Peter's admission the first Gentile converts were saved the same way and there was no distinction. At around this time Paul was yet to preach to the Gentiles and was just converted (circa Acts 10 the conversion of Cornelius and his househole--Gentiles). When Peter says "we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they" he was keeping with the same group of the Cornelius Gentile first converts. Which Peter does say to Cornelius and family in Acts 10:

36 The word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ—He is Lord of all— 37 that word you know, which was proclaimed throughout all Judea, and began from Galilee after the baptism which John preached: 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. 39 And we are witnesses of all things which He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem, whom they killed by hanging on a tree. 40 Him God raised up on the third day, and showed Him openly, 41 not to all the people, but to witnesses chosen before by God, even to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead. 42 And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead. 43 To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.”

Peter preached Christ crucified, died and rose again. And those who "believe in Him will receive remission of sins." That is exactly the same gospel Paul proclaims in 1 Corinthians 15. And it is this the account of the conversion of Cornelius in Acts 10 which is attributed the statement "saved in the same manner as they" by grace as Peter stated. The "they" are Cornelius and his household. It is not until Peter finishes this statement that Paul and Barnabas give their testimony to the council.

So if we are to include a separate dispensation and call it the grace dispensation as opposed to Pentecost, then logically it should be Acts 10 and the vision Peter received to bring the gospel of grace to the Gentiles. For we see in Acts 15 Peter tells the group Cornelius and household were "they" who received the gospel of grace: "But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.” Again "they" being in full context of the chapter are Cornelius and household. Prior to Peter's proclamation, the Judaizers presented their case; then Peter; then Paul and Barnabas.

I will add we have so many NT references the gospel is for Jew and Gentile (Greek). Jesus stated so in Luke 24 and it is no surprise Luke, a companion of Paul uses the same language to communicate One Gospel, One Spirit, One Body of Christ His Church.

The "mystery" we all seem to be hanging on was not such a mystery at all to those after the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. In Luke 24 we clearly see Jesus open the disciples' minds to the scriptures testifying of Him. The mystery of the Messiah as the suffering servant in Isaiah 53 and many others which also included His resurrection and the coming of the Holy Spirit. That is the mystery, and that mystery is fully preached by all the apostles. Paul later gets it after or during his conversion. Paul calls it a mystery in his epistles because many most likely received and responded to the gospel but did not know where to find it and understand it. That is why the Bereans searched the scriptures diligently to see if these things were true. And those things "were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me” as Jesus stated in Luke 24.

Now who explained this mystery the best so that everyone in all the years and centuries following would understand? Yes it was Paul. Paul revealed the mystery to those who were already saved by the Grace of God through faith by using his epistles. That is not an admission he was the sole posessor of the mystery. That is proved by Peter in Acts 10 certainly. When Paul says he received the gospel directly from Jesus Christ, Amen he did but he is not setting himself up as presenting something new. People were already being saved by Grace.

[redleghunter]

There it’s obvious that those who had gone out from the apostles had been teaching to follow the old “rules” which they now wanted stopped. It’s obvious by all of that that like you say Paul had completed a missionary journey but there was a difference in what he was teaching thus the call for a council to straighten things out.

It is not obvious. Why? Because we NEVER see in Acts or in the epistles of Peter, John, James, Jude to do such things. Where in Acts do we see commands to follow the ceremonial law and to circumsize? We don't. Error had crept in the Jerusalem church as they incorporated more Jews especially some Pharisees. Some may have been practicing some of the old ways but none of he apostles were preaching them as a way to salvation or a requirement.

[redleghunter]

What is very clear indeed is Paul and Barnabas were separated to bring the Gospel to the Gentiles (and still offer it to the Jews). What has not been established is that it was a different gospel.

In Acts 15, as I pointed out there was not a debate on the nature of the Gospel but a Judaizer influence which contrasted the Gospel. That was the dispute. Given the text of Acts 15 it is clear their is agreement that Peter and others were preaching the same Gospel as Paul. Peter as I point out earlier makes this statement based on his experience with Cornelius and tells us they were saved by Grace. So if we conclude a dispensation change comes out of the council then we would conclude Peter ushered it in with his presentation to Cornelius and household. The context of Peters testimony tells us this.

So if the Gospel preached to Cornelius by Peter as stated:

Acts 15:8-9 NASB

And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

Since Peter states there is no distinction between Cornelius and them, meaning Peter and Jews assembled, then those saved prior to that time received the same Gospel.

As stated before, no where earlier in Acts do we see Peter or any other apostles teach or command circumcision or any other ceremonial laws as a call to salvation or required observances. No such gospel, dispensation or program is mentioned at all. By the Acts account and Galatians account the conclusion that is best arrived at is there was a false or evil influence that was perverting the true gospel.

We can assume that the Jerusalem church Jews were still observing elements of the law, but not replacing Christ as Messiah. They most likely still circumcised their sons as sons of Abraham; still observed the Sabbath, feasts etc.but doing so because they saw it as acts of obedience and not works of man-made righteousness unto works of salvation. That is the conflict of the council. There were Judaizers who wanted to impose this on everyone as a requirement for salvation not just the Gentiles. Peter makes it clear they were all saved by Grace Jew and Gentile no distinction.

[presently no screen name]

Peter and Paul and John are all faithful and true in executing our Lord and Savior’s mission statement. They follow it to the very jot and tittle and do not deviate.

AMEN!!

It wasn't easy for any of them but, in spite of that, they all did it to a 'T' spreading His Word and doing what Jesus did in His name. I'm excited to meet them ALL one day.

Now on to you. I came to the thread from a ping from days ago but started it at the bottom where the link was and the few posts I read of yours, I witness someone who is running their race firmly and not being swayed by others. One Gospel was preached by them all and they did not miss a beat while doing it in spite of their hardships and surrounded by unbelief.

[presently no screen name]

Your angst is showing.

Meanwhile, being unqualified but available to The Lord - He called and qualified me. Placing crowns at Jesus' feet is my focus and not your angst nor what you think of me.

Here are some of the last words Jesus spoke before returning to The Father regarding those who BELIEVE.

Mark 16:17-19
17 " And these signs shall follow them that BELIEVE; In My name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, He was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God."

What signs are following you? Does it follow what JESUS said about those who BELIEVE?

[redleghunter]

Perhaps we have come to the point where you need to firmly show a separate “Grace dispensation.” Frankly the goal posts have changed in space and time several times from your side. Perhaps because of multiple posters. I will say coming to a conclusion that Paul tells an assembled group of Jews and Greeks two different things, one Faith the other repent is truly absurd and borders on saying Paul promoted confusion. There were mixed families in the Diaspora. What would a young man whose mother was Greek and father was Jewish do if he heard such a confusing message of “hey Greeks follow Faith, you Jews still need to repent. And AFTER Peter in chapter 15 says it’s one gospel and is Grace. Does not add up.

So far I have been presented with changing timelines, no answers to what your definition is of the mystery, no definition of what you view is “Grace.” Another no one has touched is why are Jesus’ words and commands in Luke 24 seem to be side stepped by the apostles that He had to start another dispensation? You may argue that there are not two gospels but your presentation so far is strongly suggesting it. Perhaps establishing the above definitions first will assist in presenting your case for two dispensations within the NT church.

[redleghunter]

I believe dispensationalism is valuable to fully appreciate What I call God’s strategic plan. We have what He revealed in Scriptures and that is authoritative.

There are clear programs or dispensations in scriptures which some call rightly dividing the Word of God. We do so with much care and base our conclusions on clear scriptural evidence from multiple scriptural sources. When there is little evidence to where we have to assume or infer then that means at best what you have is a theory. Nothing to hang your hat on and call doctrine and form your Hermeneutics.

Here are things we are certain on. There was a fall of man; A Flood; Abraham; Moses and the Law, Kings and Prophets; Messiah First Advent death and resurrection; Pentecost His Church. Each program flows from the previous. The entire Plan of God has His Word, His Revelation to mankind the Scriptures flowing through each program providing context, continuity and consistency. To draw a program line or dispensation through the heart of His Body of believers, His church contradicts His Words, actions and statements in all 4 Gospels.

[presently no screen name]

Thus they preached the same essential gospel of salvation, and gave each other the right hand of fellowship.

AMEN!! GREAT POST as usual.

Here's to your state for being the example to the nation in giving thanks to God for His bountiful blessings and His miracles to them when they arrived.

[presently no screen name]

Where did the topic of dispensation come from? I thought we were discussing ONE Gospel preached by all. Haven’t read this thread yet and only wanted to answer some days old pings and some unbelief. Hope you got a chance to enjoy all the bountiful blessings from The Lord today!

[CynicalBear]

Ok, perhaps it’s time to step back a little here. First of all, let’s all understand that the issue we are discussing is what I would call a peripheral issue. We all know that salvation is by faith in the shed blood of Jesus. So we are not questioning each others salvation. At least I’m not and I would hope no one else in these discussions is either. So this issue to me is not something to get upset over. Oh, I’m not saying you are but just wanted to get that out there for all.

That being said I prayed last night and got the impression that we really need to look at the words we are using and discussing. It was rather enlightening for me an I hope for you and others as well.

I think most of us have been conditioned or taught that when we hear the word repent or repentance we think of stopping a sin. What I found cleared things up for me even more than before.

The Greek word for repent is metanoeó which literally means a change of mind or to think differently. The Greek word for sin is hamartia which means to miss the mark or simply sin. Here’s what Strong has to say which I thought was very interesting.

“/hamartía ("sin, forfeiture because missing the mark") is the brand of sin that emphasizes its self-originated (self-empowered) nature – i.e. it is not originated or empowered by God (i.e. not of faith, His inworked persuasion, cf. Ro 14:23).

We see an example of that here.

Romans 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Notice that if it’s “not of faith” it is sin.

Now let’s look at that in light of what the Jews had been taught. They throughout the Old Testament understood, and rightly so, that what THEY did i.e. the law, dietary requirements etc was how they stayed right with God. Self empowering if you will is what they were taught was the requirement for being “right with God” or “of faith”. Not so with the Gentiles. They didn’t have to “change their minds” about how to be “right with God”. They didn’t have any faith in God to be doing anything that was not of faith.

That’s why we see all the apostles and even Paul when talking to Jews or Gentile converts to Judaism used the word repent which meant to “change their mind” about what they needed to believe. When speaking to Gentiles they didn’t have to “repent” or change their mind about how to please God. They simply had to believe.

Did that all make sense to you? It sure spoke volumes to me. I don’t know when the word “repent” came to mean “turn from sin” or “be sorry for sin” because it’s not what they meant back then.

[smvoice]

Please, then, let me know when you drink poison and live to ping me about it. And by all means, ping me when you've become a snake charmer with impressive credentials. Because JESUS SAID in Mark 16 that "They SHALL". NOT "They MIGHT". or "They COULD". That promise was given to ALL who BELIEVE, not some, or those who have enough faith. Jesus also said to sell all you have and follow Him. What tent do you abide in, that has internet capability?