Posted on 11/14/2013 11:02:29 AM PST by fishtank
While there can be sin or lack of faith, as seen in Scripture, the fact is it is often God's will for us to suffer, from persecution (which should be disallowed under WoF theology) to sickness. And which is not simply for our benefit but that of the body.
For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked: That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it. (1 Corinthians 12:24-26)
Caring for sickness and deformity, etc. requires us to expand our heart, and if all the world were healthy, we would be superficial.
But as those who are not made well are a challenge to WoF types, they can end up treating the sick as lepers. These are descendants of Job's friends There was a man named Paul who also must have suffered form a lack of faith, or hidden sin.
The late Walter Martin ("Bible answer man") brought some needed balance here, and you can hear his messages here , including the two on Charisma: Cultic, Occultic, or Christian? - Side 1 Though a charismatic himself who was healed of a congenital lung issue, he described how his church had to clean up after some traveling WoF type held services.
This is condemned by me as well but the "Strange Fire" conference is the issue here, and whether the gifts exists today, and their imbalance and hard rejection of that .
No.
The fire is “strange” because of the devilish doctrines that accompany the ‘fire’.
The ‘strange fire’ must as well be resisted when people like Wayne Grudem and John Piper refuse to condemn their heretic “pyr allotrium” (Greek) and “ignem alienum” “Latin” associates.
The “strange fire” doctrines must be resisted in bookstores like Lifeway that refuse to stop selling the doctrines of demons.
The “strange fire” must be refuted and people must be told to stop watching Hinn, Dollar, Crouch, Capps and Copeland etc.
You are the only person who has gotten the 2 Cor. 5 insider meaning! Thanks for that! :)
No, that is simply untenable. As with all the NT, Hebrews was written most directly to 1st century saints, and these were being persecuted and tempted to deny the Lord, and thus it is a "letter of exhortation. And as regards angels and theology, it is consistent with the rest of the NT.
The old covenant was still much observed at that time, thus the theology the writer (Apollos?) lays down. But that widespread OT observance would change with the destruction of the Temple, which is perhaps inferred here: "In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." (Hebrews 8:13)
And the or an angel of God stood by Paul and encouraged him in Acts 27:23, and the angel of the Lord Jesus was the one who spoke to John. (1Jn. 22:16)
And angels being ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation (Hebrews 1:14) refers to the saints of all ages.
Yes, as they go way beyond condemning Hinn, etc. but use such to disallow all sign gifts.
The ‘strange fire’ must as well be resisted when people like Wayne Grudem and John Piper refuse to condemn their heretic “pyr allotrium” (Greek) and “ignem alienum” “Latin” associates.
?
The “strange fire” must be refuted and people must be told to stop watching Hinn, Dollar, Crouch, Capps and Copeland etc.
True, without discernment.
<....”concerned for many” ..... are showing inclinations to believe some of the outlandish stuff associated with that movement”....>
The key here is ‘MANY’ who can and will lead others astray and influence those who have yet to come to the Lord with this deception.
We often here of peoples motives and the sincerity of their hearts toward God and what they believe....it’s close to being an excuse when they are in serious error and or being deceived. Most enjoy and like the “feelings” which they experience.....which can lead to ‘dependence’ on the emotional state one is in at any given moment rather than faith.
Therefore just as in any physical or emotional dependency one has to have the next “fix” in order to “feel” right in what they’ve wired themselves for.
What makes the difference is if the individual is seeking or not ‘the truth’....those who are seeking the truth will eventually come away from these groups or seek to make the truth known within the congregation, which generally leads to a split in the fellowship with some leaving. Which contrary to popular belief is NOT a bad thing.
It reveals itself often like a incompatible, destructive marriage.....you love the person so it takes a long time to come to the point where one really sees a need to make a decision, and it will always be life changing.
No church is exempt from the infiltration of false teaching....but if it’s not addressed early on it will continue to grow and “stick” to those who are seeking something more than faith.
From it’s onset in this nation, the Charismatic Movement did and continues to cause ‘much division’ within the household of God......for that reason alone...that it causes division...is more than enough to be a guard at the very least...and with this to address it early on.
Yep....that’s how I see it.
I think we all to easily forget that God did say he would send a deception which those who have rejected the truth would believe.
When the Lord left the Temple HE did not do so in one quick swoop...it was a gradual departure as if to give the people ample time to notice their condition and that He was indeed leaving.
To me it appears to be likewise today as the world more and more abandons God the enemy of men’s souls is quick to fill that void with a counterfeit, and it appears people are ‘ripe’ now to believe ‘anything’ that makes them feel better about themselves and the world.
Additionaly many do not want to do the work of reading the scriptures nor confirming what they do believe before the Lord.....answers to questions are not always given overnight, and we live in a society who wants and expects quick answers.
I heard a Pastor once say...” Read the scriptures at length until the Lord meets you there”. That generally doesn’t happen in a five minute session before bedtime.
But we aren't Africans....as you know they spend a lifetime, many of them, entrenched with all kinds of spiritual experiences brought on by demons and various other hocus pocus gurus etc. Haitians also come to mind as they incorporate Voo-doo practices with their Catholic Faith.
I don't think it's fair to compare other nations and how God works among them and those of the USA or any other country. Many Africans and third world countries are ‘high’ on emotionalism to begin with.
However I will say that this nation's generations are fast becoming touchy feely taught and encouraged within the educational system .......so to appeal to them via the “spiritual experiences” they might encounter is particularly tempting. New Age Spirituality is attracting many.
” Would you be comfortable in the 1Cor. 14 meeting if done as per Paul’s rules?’
I would be comfortable with it, but I would expect to see a bunch of sober people speaking Japanese, Korean, or clicking in some obscure African dialect, as we might have expected in Acts 2.
“I see only you arguing that one office ceased, that of the apostles, which is one of the formal position offices listed in Eph. 4:11 of itself and which they occupied other offices listed there, but the “sign” gifts of 1Cor. 12:4-11 are not tied to that office,”
“And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?”
(1Co 12:28-30)
But herein lies the rub, the “office” of Apostles is included in a list of other callings, including that of “workers of miracles,” “prophets,” and tongue-speakers. In fact, to be an Apostle is essentially a single word to describe someone who is a Prophet, teacher, miracle worker, and tongue speaker, with these gifts then being divided to other Christians to lesser and lesser degrees.
While miracles can be distinct from someone called to be a “miracle worker,” yet the miracle worker is one whom we can say is always at work in that particular calling! In the same way a teacher is always out and about teaching, or an administrator is always at work exercising his particular gifts.
At the same time though, a teacher can pray to God, like myself (well, I’m in training to be a SECULAR teacher anyway), and perhaps witness an incredible miracle. I always marvel when God answers my prayers, though I immediately forget about them the next time I fall into some trouble, and then He surprises me again. But, would I then, as a ‘teacher,’ then be able to claim that I am called to be a miracle worker? Say I go to a friends house who is very sick, and a group of us stop and pray that he is healed, and we go on FR and we ask everyone to pray for the individual, and then this individual is either miraculously healed or at least recovers “naturally,” would the entire forum be able to claim that they have the gift of healing?
This is the important distinction I am getting at, and though we do not have any specific references in the scripture for the “callings” of being a healer, or prophet, to have ceased, can we identify anyone who matches EXACTLY the pattern as found in the NT operating today? And is it unreasonable to conclude that since Apostles are no longer given to the church, that, therefore, the other miraculous offices have also passed away, since they are not required?
I will add, most of all, that miracles don’t convert anyone. It is God, as even the Jews who witnessed the incredible miracles of their exodus, still did not believe until God worked on their hearts to believe.
“And Moses called unto all Israel, and said unto them, Ye have seen all that the LORD did before your eyes in the land of Egypt unto Pharaoh, and unto all his servants, and unto all his land; The great temptations which thine eyes have seen, the signs, and those great miracles: Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.”
(Deu 29:2-4)
“And i think if we were in Africa and other places you would see far more evidence of God supernaturally working in confirming His word, (Mk. 16:20) and combating the devil. Which is needed more today.”
I am not sure that these things are true in Africa, though I have heard them popularly spread. I have also heard that the Charismatics in that country have essentially replaced the role formerly held by the witch doctor, and that most of them are still ignorant of the Gospel.
I would need to see direct evidence. But, more importantly, I would need to examine their doctrine, as even if they are having people growing back feet or arms, if they preach a different Gospel, they are accursed. In the Old Testament, God would sometimes prove His people by sending to them a false prophet, whose sign or wonder would come to pass, but whose doctrine would render them devils.
That’s another danger with this emphasis on spiritual gifts, as it places experience over sound doctrine, and by so doing damns many.
THe transition from OT to NT: 7:11-28; 8:6-13; 10:5-21. It provides them with the motivation to "go on to perfection": 6:1-3; 1:4; 9:11-14; 10:10-14; 13:10-14. And it talks of faith that is founded "on better things". i.e. better than shadows and substance of OT.
When the Body of Christ is raptured, GOd's word will still be here. Where will those who are left go for their information, direction, and encouragement? Romans through Philemon would be great, but that is too late. Salvation by grace through faith has ended, and "enduring to the end" will be the new norm. God has preserved His word for those last day saints also. The Bible isn't just about us. So where would they expect to find his directions to them? ANd it goes on, from Hebrews through Revelation. The last days before Christ returns and set up His kingdom.
And before anyone states that I'm saying that not all the Bible is for us, let me state that is not at ALL what I believe. ALL the Bible is for our understanding. BUt not ALL the Bible is to smvoice for smvoice's doing. It is CRUCIAL to know where you are in God's program as you study the BIble. Keeping the RIGHT Scriptures for the RIGHT TIME is ESSENTIAL. 2 TIm 2:15.
We do have the following from the Gospel of John:
John 15:
26 “When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me, 27 and you will testify also, because you have been with Me from the beginning.
John 16:
12 “I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.
So you want to be a martyr?:)
While miracles can be distinct from someone called to be a “miracle worker,” yet the miracle worker is one whom we can say is always at work in that particular calling!
It means they have a gift, and years, there those today who regularly work in that area, I was healed of a lower hernia (i got lifting hickory wood) i had for years, after a humble couple, with no fanfare, prayed over me in a low key Pentecostal church service.
This is the important distinction I am getting at, and though we do not have any specific references in the scripture for the “callings” of being a healer, or prophet, to have ceased, can we identify anyone who matches EXACTLY the pattern as found in the NT operating today?
Yes i believe we can, if, as with other things such as evangelism, it is a inferior version to Acts 2-5.
And is it unreasonable to conclude that since Apostles are no longer given to the church, that, therefore, the other miraculous offices have also passed away, since they are not required?
But no means is it reasonable, as apart from writing Scripture, it is as another claim to Divine revelation to multitides of seekers, and God confirms His word with supernatural attestation, in His grace, even though regeneration is primary.
I will add, most of all, that miracles don’t convert anyone. It is God, as even the Jews who witnessed the incredible miracles of their exodus, still did not believe until God worked on their hearts to believe.
This is true, and which i point out to atheists who demand God prove Himself to them, kind of like requiring sex from a women before you will marry her.
But not all will hear preaching either, and as seen in Scripture, both preaching and miracles work conversion and edification, or judgment (Woe to you, and thus the Lord did both.
Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. (Luke 10:13)
Finally, i really recommend listing to Walter Martin's tapes on The Errors of Positive Confession if you can find them. They may be here next month.
It is both fair and Scriptural, as the Bible does so, and points out the most faith was found outside Israel. The culture here much prepares one to be an atheist, as we are basically rich, and the pervasive persuasive and perverted media and intellectual environment brainwashes the public.
In contrast, when your average life expectancy is about 50, and hunger or malnutrition is common and doctors are rare, then it is conducive to faith, God or the witch doctor, etc.
This is where we see the most Christian growth, and thus it is where more miracles occur, overcoming the competition, who does not subscribe to cessationism.
I think most understand this smvoice.....yet even the disciple's had difficulty with the truth and where they were in God's Program...and so will we.... who can sometimes be just as “slow and hard to understand” as Jesus said His disciple's were...........Many times He mentioned how long he'd been with them and yet they still did not understand.
But as said, this type of tongue was never mentioned again, but a prayer tongue was, and which thus required the gift of interpretation.
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