” Would you be comfortable in the 1Cor. 14 meeting if done as per Paul’s rules?’
I would be comfortable with it, but I would expect to see a bunch of sober people speaking Japanese, Korean, or clicking in some obscure African dialect, as we might have expected in Acts 2.
“I see only you arguing that one office ceased, that of the apostles, which is one of the formal position offices listed in Eph. 4:11 of itself and which they occupied other offices listed there, but the “sign” gifts of 1Cor. 12:4-11 are not tied to that office,”
“And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?”
(1Co 12:28-30)
But herein lies the rub, the “office” of Apostles is included in a list of other callings, including that of “workers of miracles,” “prophets,” and tongue-speakers. In fact, to be an Apostle is essentially a single word to describe someone who is a Prophet, teacher, miracle worker, and tongue speaker, with these gifts then being divided to other Christians to lesser and lesser degrees.
While miracles can be distinct from someone called to be a “miracle worker,” yet the miracle worker is one whom we can say is always at work in that particular calling! In the same way a teacher is always out and about teaching, or an administrator is always at work exercising his particular gifts.
At the same time though, a teacher can pray to God, like myself (well, I’m in training to be a SECULAR teacher anyway), and perhaps witness an incredible miracle. I always marvel when God answers my prayers, though I immediately forget about them the next time I fall into some trouble, and then He surprises me again. But, would I then, as a ‘teacher,’ then be able to claim that I am called to be a miracle worker? Say I go to a friends house who is very sick, and a group of us stop and pray that he is healed, and we go on FR and we ask everyone to pray for the individual, and then this individual is either miraculously healed or at least recovers “naturally,” would the entire forum be able to claim that they have the gift of healing?
This is the important distinction I am getting at, and though we do not have any specific references in the scripture for the “callings” of being a healer, or prophet, to have ceased, can we identify anyone who matches EXACTLY the pattern as found in the NT operating today? And is it unreasonable to conclude that since Apostles are no longer given to the church, that, therefore, the other miraculous offices have also passed away, since they are not required?
I will add, most of all, that miracles don’t convert anyone. It is God, as even the Jews who witnessed the incredible miracles of their exodus, still did not believe until God worked on their hearts to believe.
“And Moses called unto all Israel, and said unto them, Ye have seen all that the LORD did before your eyes in the land of Egypt unto Pharaoh, and unto all his servants, and unto all his land; The great temptations which thine eyes have seen, the signs, and those great miracles: Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.”
(Deu 29:2-4)
So you want to be a martyr?:)
While miracles can be distinct from someone called to be a “miracle worker,” yet the miracle worker is one whom we can say is always at work in that particular calling!
It means they have a gift, and years, there those today who regularly work in that area, I was healed of a lower hernia (i got lifting hickory wood) i had for years, after a humble couple, with no fanfare, prayed over me in a low key Pentecostal church service.
This is the important distinction I am getting at, and though we do not have any specific references in the scripture for the “callings” of being a healer, or prophet, to have ceased, can we identify anyone who matches EXACTLY the pattern as found in the NT operating today?
Yes i believe we can, if, as with other things such as evangelism, it is a inferior version to Acts 2-5.
And is it unreasonable to conclude that since Apostles are no longer given to the church, that, therefore, the other miraculous offices have also passed away, since they are not required?
But no means is it reasonable, as apart from writing Scripture, it is as another claim to Divine revelation to multitides of seekers, and God confirms His word with supernatural attestation, in His grace, even though regeneration is primary.
I will add, most of all, that miracles don’t convert anyone. It is God, as even the Jews who witnessed the incredible miracles of their exodus, still did not believe until God worked on their hearts to believe.
This is true, and which i point out to atheists who demand God prove Himself to them, kind of like requiring sex from a women before you will marry her.
But not all will hear preaching either, and as seen in Scripture, both preaching and miracles work conversion and edification, or judgment (Woe to you, and thus the Lord did both.
Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. (Luke 10:13)
Finally, i really recommend listing to Walter Martin's tapes on The Errors of Positive Confession if you can find them. They may be here next month.
But as said, this type of tongue was never mentioned again, but a prayer tongue was, and which thus required the gift of interpretation.