Posted on 11/13/2013 3:34:41 PM PST by NYer
Ultra-traditionalist Catholics have openly challenged Pope Francis by disrupting one of his favorite events, a ceremony that he and Jewish leaders led in the Metropolitan Cathedral each year to promote religious harmony on the anniversary of the beginning of the Holocaust.
The annual ceremony brings together Catholics, Jews and Protestants to mark Kristallnacht, the Nazi-led mob violence in 1938 when about 1,000 Jewish synagogues were burned and thousands of Jews were forced into concentration camps, launching the genocide that killed 6 million Jews.
A small group disrupted Tuesday night’s ceremony by shouting the rosary and the “Our Father” prayer, and spreading pamphlets saying “followers of false gods must be kept out of the sacred temple.”
Buenos Aires Archbishop Mario Poli, named by Francis to replace him as Argentina’s top church official, appealed for calm as others in the audience rose up to repudiate them, and the protesters were soon escorted out by police.
“Let there be peace. Shalom,” Poli then said, urging everyone to take their seats for a ceremony that was also led by Rabbi Abraham Skorka, a close friend of the pope who co-wrote a book of dialogue seeking common ground between Judaism and Catholicism.
“Dear Jewish brothers, please feel at home, because that’s the way Christians want it, despite these signs of intolerance,” Poli said. “Your presence here doesn’t desecrate a temple of God. We will continue in peace this encounter that Pope Francis always promoted, valued and appreciated so much.”
The Rev. Christian Bouchacourt, the South America leader of the Society of Saint Pius X, said Wednesday that the protesters belong to his organization and that they have a right to feel outraged when rabbis preside over a ceremony in a cathedral. “I recognize the authority of the pope, but he is not infallible and in this case, does things we cannot accept,” Bouchacourt said in an interview with Radio La Red.
“This wasn’t a desire to make a rebellion, but to show our love to the Catholic Church, which was made for the Catholic faith,” Bouchacourt added. “A Mass isn’t celebrated in a synagogue, nor in a mosque. The Muslims don’t accept it. In the same way, we who are Catholics cannot accept the presence of another faith in our church.”
The Buenos Aires Herald has this account:
“A group of them attempted to spill their poison on the victims of the Holocaust,” said DAIA Jewish community group head Julio Schlosser, who was present at the meeting. “It’s very dangerous if we do not all publicly condemn acts like these, everyone, Jews, Catholics and Muslims.”
As the incident developed and the Lefebvrists, mainly youths, were insulted for their actions, Father Fernando Giannetti requested they leave in the name of Buenos Aires Archbishop Mario Poli, calling for those in attendance not to submit to “an act of provocation.”
After some minutes of tension, police officials arrived at the Cathedral, although they did not intervene, while Giannetti prayed Saint Francis of Assisi’s Prayer for Peace.
The police arrived, but were confused as to why a Catholic priest was calling them to remove another Catholic priest praying the Rosary in a Catholic church! Meanwhile, the Buddhists had left the sanctuary, and the concert was postponed (it was eventually held in the church’s basement).
I'm sorry...but without some vile act of destruiction, or even something like a documented "blasphemy" against God, that word -- desecration -- (did Tancred chose it?) is a far stretch.
Lacking anything solid as towards accusation or charge along the lines of that just mentioned, I'll not be convinced otherwise...
More graciously, and generously, in what appears to me to be genuine and Godly [enough] warmth for one another, Bergoglio & Rabbi Abraham Skorka (who may have been present at this last little dust-up in that Argentine church?) have worked together previously, even becoming as friends.
When someone calls an inter-faith "observance" of Kristallnacht a "desecration" for simple reason of it taking place -- I have to shake my head in amazement, while being reminded of Muslim sentiments towards "infidel".
Here, from http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re01193.htm
On GodTry it. It's not poison. That is, unless the current "pope" isn't any good -- at all. I don't believe that...should anyone?
POPE FRANCIS & RABBI ABRAHAM SKORKAOriginally published in Argentina in 2010, On Heaven and Earth is an open and expansive dialogue between Jorge Mario Bergoglio (Pope Francis) and Abraham Skorka (a Rabbi and biophysicist) in which they share their thoughts on religion, reason, and the challenges the world faces in the 21st Century.
A Crucifix is not “idol”. It is the image of our Savior. Unless the person praying is an imbecile, he knows the difference and his prayer goes to Christ, not to a piece of wood. St. Paul referred to the Crucifix in Galatians 3:1 as something Galatians ought to look at more intently.
Protestantism is a religion of 2-year-olds, it seems.
No, of course not. I am not worried about God in this.
So why join them in their error?
God gave us His Son to listen to Him (Matthew 17:5). It is our duty to evangelize the Jews even more, in the context of the horrors of 20c. The "ecumenical service" is an oxymoron; a prayer to Christ to prevent another Kristallnacht would indeed be quite appropriate.
SSPX antisemites
What makes you think they were anti-Semites? I believe I explained fully why the common prayer in a Catholic Church was inappropriate logically, evangelistically and legally for the canons of the Church herself. Am I now an "antisemite"?
For example, you do not see a difference between a Crucifix and a stick to which a pagan "prays". A Crucifix is a necessary element of Catholic Christian prayer. So, I don't know what religion you have but it is indeed clear that we cannot pray together, isn't it?
The pagan dancing around the stick may not know Jesus Christ, but most Jews and Muslims do know about Him; and they have rejected Him.
He who honoureth not the Son, honoureth not the Father, who hath sent him. John 5:23
It was more than a speech; it appears to be the same type of event that Cardinal Bergoglio held in the same cathedral in November, 2012.
The official program book with the symbol of B'nai B'rith and the coat of arms of the Archdiocese of Buenos Aires is called an "Inter-religious Liturgy."
B’nai B’rith “Memorial Liturgy” in the Cathedral of Buenos Aires With Cardinal Bergoglio
How many Roman Catholics here have gotten all up in arms concerning how "the press" misquotes or misconstrues Bergoglio's words? Yet if a "Protestant" or non-denominational portrayed his past words such as characterized above, we need not imagine the protests from RC'ers on this forum, for such has already occurred...
Personally -- I don't have all that much trouble understanding Bergoglio. His remarks concerning how proselytism can be nonsense (if lacking crucial elements?) need be taken in context, not entirely taken out-of-context. I don't think he said directly; "Athiests[sic] can go to heaven without converting" either, but if you have a source for that alleged almost-quote, then feel free to review and reconsider what the man's intended meaning was...or being generous towards him...what it may have been.
Besides:
I didn't elect him. A college of [Roman Catholic] cardinals did. In Rome, no less...
Neither in this present discussion had I directly quoted the man or attempted to rephrase anything which he has said, but instead referred/provided link to a page relative to the subject of this thread, in hope that could be an entryway towards greater understanding of what the "disrupted" inter-faith Kristallnacht observance was about, by showing some background as to perhaps how it came about --- the friendly, even 'theological' collaboration between Bergoglio and Skorka.
I did not see there (in that small sample) anything outlandish or blasphemous coming from Skorka. He may as well have been a Christian theologian of most any stripe, when he spoke of Job. I will admit to enjoying the man's insights at that juncture.
Now if there can be some actual "desecration" demonstrated; then that needs be shown --- or the "flower" [Tancred] --- need shut his yap about it, other than to withdraw his own mischaracterization of the event.
Then you add;
when it was not me, but was you who said;
What is an “alleged-almost quote”? I have never heard that term before.
It can be difficult for a Catholic to explain the desecration of a Catholic church to a non-catholic, since they don't hold the same faith. So I think Catholics and non-catholics may have totally different ideas of "desecration".
I have no idea. How many of them are here?
I'm not one of them. When the press quotes Pope Francis verbatim, it's not a misquote.
The Apostles preached "Christ, crucified" for the sins of man, the sin of the world (including those not "Jewish").
They did not preach praying to crucifixes.
From liturgy, widespread in Christian expression;
So -- don't pray to crucifixes. Instead, do as the one who was crucified for our sins directly instructed us to do (when we pray) addressing the Creator directly, in His [the Christ's] name.
Christ is now seated at the right hand of the Father. He did ascend. There were witnesses.
My meaning was clear enough;
Show us where Bergoglio said
From the Baltimore Catechism No. 3; Lesson 4
Q. 917. What is the Mass?
A. The Mass is the unbloody sacrifice of the body and blood of Christ.
That was not a quote. Nice try.
I understand [Roman] Catholic "faith" well enough. Better than many "Catholics".
If one cannot put their finger upon what "desecration" occurred --- then how can it be said to have occurred?
Words have meanings. RadTradCats (like SSPX'ers) taking offense or having their own emotions and ideas as towards what constitutes 'sanctity' of a Roman Catholic Cathedral, is simply that, --- their own ideas or views being upset or "offended", when the imagined offense cannot be explained.
What was objected to? (why am I having to explain it? this is ridiculous!) ...but the presence of a rabbi, speaking from near an altar, in a Roman Catholic Cathedral?
Is there ANYTHING else???
The rabbi was present there, at the approval of a presently presiding "pope".
What are the RadTrads telling us? That Bergoglio is not a rightful successor to Peter? If so -- then there goes the whole shooting match. Stick a spork in it, it's done.
Oh, well...I never did consider that the statement "all must be subject to the Roman Pontiff" was all that well advised, anyway.
Are you telling me now that you agree? If so, then one may need to adjust their view as to what "the church" is made of.
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