Posted on 10/13/2013 12:01:40 PM PDT by matthewrobertolson
Expounding on the importance of our actions for salvation is, I suppose, my primary thing. I have been in so many informal debates over the issue that I have started to lose count of them. I have written about the topic many times. And often, I become angry (like God in 1 Kings 11:9-10) at the mere thought of sola fide (faith alone), because I know that it is completely contrary to what the Lord [has] commanded. But why?
Faith alone was, without a doubt, the primary reason that I left Protestantism. Even though I was ill-educated in theology at the time, I knew that it was illogical.
I like to think of sola fide in terms of criminal law. Imagine that someone went before a judge and was proven guilty of heinous crimes, but then pleaded to the judge that he believed in the judge's authority to convict him and so the judge should not do so and had that as his only defense. Should the judge convict him to any degree or should the judge completely let him off, and then give him a reward?
Do you find the faith alone argument compelling in such an instance? I do not. Of course, a faith alone-r would say that there is some sort of significant difference between such a scenario in terms of temporal law and such a scenario in terms of eternal law, but there really is not. Protestant arguments for the belief simply do not stand in the face of such scenarios or substantial scrutiny.
I strongly believe that sola fide is at the heart of many Western problems. Self-professed Christians have used it as an excuse to not care for the disadvantaged, to engage in profane sexual activity, etc. the list goes on and on.
Martin Luther told his followers to sin and sin boldly (among other things, as I have documented) because he taught that we are saved solely by our faith in the power of Jesus Christ, apart from our actions. This method of thinking has been adopted by millions of Protestants since his time. But is it supported by the Bible? No. See Hebrews 10:26-27:
For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries.
Faith alone has had a terrible impact on society. People often now shy away from discussing religion or morality with others, fearing conflict. Take, for example, something that transpired between a Lutheran family member and me. After I privately and politely informed her that she had committed a grievous sin (like we are called to do see Matthew 18:15-17, Galatians 6:1, and Ephesians 4:15), she immediately jumped to the Who are you to judge? defense and paired it with the Jesus paid the price line. I am sure that, for many Catholics, such occurrences are unfortunately familiar.
God has written in our hearts (Romans 2:15) that we should serve Him and others, not our selfish desires -- and we will be punished if we defy Him. The necessity of both good works and abstinence from grave sin gives our lives concrete meaning. If someone takes away the eternal significance of our actions, they rob us of any real purpose: we all just become random, faceless, unimportant beings.
Sola fide does not work either logically or practically; it fails on all counts. Now, you know why I hate it.
(All verses are from the NASB translation.)
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Go because you dont believe that faith alone is scripture to a church that believes you dont even need to believe in Jesus to be saved makes sense to this guy? OH Yeah! Hes got it together scripturally and is someone we should listen to. NOT
“Yes. Saved by Grace through Faith. But NOT Faith alone. That belief does directly contradict Scripture.”
It certainly does not:
“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”
(Eph 2:8-9)
The problem comes when you attempt to read James by ignoring Paul, and also ignoring the context of James. Since James himself says that even just one sin brings you under the guilt of the entire law, which makes every Christian a heinous sinner (James 2:10). (James also doesn’t even support the “law” you want us to follow, since usually when Papists say this, they mean that they want us to bow and scrape before their corpse-like Popes. Instead, the whole law is fulfilled by loving our neighbor (James 2:8).)
Obviously, if just one sin brings you under the guilt of the entire law, then it is impossible to be saved by a quantity of works added to faith, as Catholics imagine up in heaven there being a scale where their right and wrong are weighed.
And since Paul rules out works altogether in the equation, the obvious reconciliation is this: it is the quality of the faith that saves, that faith which can shew its existence through its fruit (works), and not the quantity of the works.
Therefore we are safe, and need not follow all the stupid laws of Rome to be saved, like in this example, endorsed by the Pope:
One day the King fell seriously ill and when he was given up for dead he found himself, in a vision, before the judgement seat of Our Lord. Many devils were there accusing him of all the sins he had committed and Our Lord as Sovereign Judge was just about to condemn him to hell when Our Lady appeared to intercede for him. She called for a pair of scales and had his sins placed in one of the balances whereas she put the rosary that he had always worn on the other scale, together with all the Rosaries that had been said because of his example. It was found that the Rosaries weighed more than his sins.
Looking at him with great kindness Our Lady said: As a reward for this little honor that you paid me in wearing my Rosary, I have obtained a great grace for you from my Son. Your life will be spared for a few more years. See that you spend these years wisely, and do penance.
When the King regained consciousness he cried out: Blessed be the Rosary of the Most Holy Virgin Mary, by which I have been delivered from eternal damnation!
http://www.rosary-center.org/secret.htm
This is a wholly blasphemous view of salvation which must be rejected. There is no weighing of good works for your salvation, as if you had any. According to the scripture, there isnt a single man who is good. Not even Paul, as we see in Romans 7, was free of sin. Instead, he lamented that he sinned so greatly, and did not do all the good that he would. John, in his epistle, declares that anyone who says the have no sin, is a liar. In reality, if anything is measured, it is the quality of the faith which a man has that shall either damn him or justify him. Not the quantity of works, but the living faith, as opposed to the mere belief of devils (who all believe in God, but are damned), which produces good works the way a pregnant cloud produces rain.
Though this would still be an imperfect way of speaking, because faith also is the gift of God, and we cannot imagine that anything given by God is of dubious quality. Perhaps it is better to say, that the faith of the elect, which is from God, is always perfect; whereas the dead faith of evil ones is always found wanting. Hence why Paul says that we are not sufficient for anything, and this includes our faith, which is given to us by the Holy Spirit when we were yet unwilling and dead in our sin. As the scripture says, no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost (1 Co 12:3). Again, no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father (Joh 6:65). And again, For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure (Php 2:13).
Thus both faith and good works must bow to grace, which provides liberally for both for all those predestined before the world began; not according to our works, or our foreseen goodness and faith, but according to His good pleasure and purpose.
What this little heretic is missing is this: The judge took the punishment in place of the person guilty of the crime. Paid it in full.
That is the Gospel.
LOL.
See if I care. Most of those whom I reply to know who I am.
Have fun!
Romans 1:7: To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Romans 8:27: And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
Romans 12:13: Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.
Romans 15:25: But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.
Romans 15:26: For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.
Romans 15:31: That I may be delivered from them that do not believe in Judaea; and that my service which I have for Jerusalem may be accepted of the saints;
Romans 16:2: That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.
Romans 16:15: Salute Philologus, and Julia, Nereus, and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints which are with them.
I Corinthians 1:2: Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
I Corinthians 6:1: Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
I Corinthians 6:2: Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
I Corinthians 14:33: For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
I Corinthians 16:1: Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
I Corinthians 16:15: I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints,)
II Corinthians 1:1: Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:
II Corinthians 8:4: Praying us with much intreaty that we would receive the gift, and take upon us the fellowship of the ministering to the saints.
II Corinthians 9:1: For as touching the ministering to the saints, it is superfluous for me to write to you:
II Corinthians 9:12: For the administration of this service not only supplieth the want of the saints, but is abundant also by many thanksgivings unto God;
II Corinthians 13:13: All the saints salute you.
Ephesians 1:1: Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Ephesians 1:15: Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
Ephesians 1:18: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
Ephesians 2:19: Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Ephesians 3:8: Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
Ephesians 3:18: May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
Ephesians 4:12: For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Ephesians 5:3: But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
Ephesians 6:18: Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
Philippians 1:1: Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:
Philippians 4:22: All the saints salute you, chiefly they that are of Caesar's household.
Colossians 1:2: To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Colossians 1:4: Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints,
Colossians 1:12: Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Colossians 1:26: Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
I Thessalonians 3:13: To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
II Thessalonians 1:10: When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
I Timothy 5:10: Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints' feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work.
Philemon 1:5: Hearing of thy love and faith, which thou hast toward the Lord Jesus, and toward all saints;
Philemon 1:7: For we have great joy and consolation in thy love, because the bowels of the saints are refreshed by thee, brother.
JSDude1:
And that passage (Romans 3:21-31) is clearly in reference to the works of the Mosaic Law, not to the works of the “new” Law (the universal form of the Law, which Christ brought to us). Just look at verse 29:
“Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also..”
No, we do not ignore the usage of “saint” in the Bible. We do, however, believe in the Communion of Saints, which encompasses both earthly and heavenly Christians.
When I saw this posting, I was aware of the responses that it would bring forth. It is disheartening that Catholics and Protestants can be so disrespectful and sometimes dishonest about how they differ in interpretation of this belief in “Faith Alone”.
I have read the first 50 responses and that is enough for me. For I have seen it all before and we are covering the same subject over and over.
I consider myself to be a “faithful” Catholic. Theological discussions often turn on the meaning of a phrase, and this causes un-Christian and quite often erroneous accusations on both sides of the subject.
For example, the writer of the post says he is not a believer in sole fide. And then he tells why. I have to agree with him in this sense - for a person to declare that he/she believes in Jesus as Lord and Savior, and then to not have any change of heart or spiritual growth thereafter it seems to me that such a declaration would be a shallow and without any seriousness. A goof Christian knows that he/she is a sinner and is called to conversion.
OTOH, perhaps that does not negate the concept of sole fide, but merely shows how easily we people can declare a belief and then proceed to continue in all our serious sinfulness while still saying that “Jesus has saved me”. Such an attitude is totally disrespectful of the Lord’s suffering and sacrifice, as well as scandalous. It gives people a license to be degenerate while still thinking they are saved - which is indeed a heresy. Eternal salvation through the blood of Christ is not to be mocked.
With regards to works as a way to “earn salvation”, this is indeed a dangerous thing for Christians to believe. Performing works of charity is demanded of us by Jesus as we are to “put on the mantle of Jesus”, according to St. Paul. The parable of the Good Samaritan teaches us the meaning of true love of neighbor. Jesus did say that we should be a light to the world and not hide our light under a barrel. He was speaking about the way that we live, which some could interpret to mean our “works”. But Jesus means that we are required to feed the hungry, cloth the naked, etc. So, performing works, whether we are Catholics, Mormons, Protestants, etc., is to follow the example of our Lord.
I think that if a Catholic expresses that he/she does charity to ‘get to heaven’, perhaps it is misstated and/or misinterpreted to mean that it is a way to earn a trip to heaven. This is not Catholic dogma. Likewise, I would hope that when a fundamentalist Protestant says that he/she knows he’s saved by “faith alone in Jesus”, and that they know they are going to heaven because they have declared it, yet they then go our and continue to publicly fornicate, have children outside of marriage, etc., that puts a lie to their declaration and it certainly gives scandal.
Personally I believe most true Christians do understand that without the Cross and Resurrection, we are not saved. Likewise, without showings some fruit of our faith, it remains shallow.
Interesting, balanced response. Thank you for posting. :)
Dominus vobiscum (”The Lord be with you”).
However, God has declared ALL believers Saints whom to believe in the Lord Christ Jesus for salvation and mercy and grace via God the Father and the Lord Christ Jesus. Today on earth ALL believers are Saints. A saint (believer-saint) does not need to ‘wait’ to die and go to heaven to be recognized as a saint, we are ALL saints at the precise moment of belief in the faith OF Christ for Jesus Christ is FAITHFUL to save us from our sins (past-present-future).
“And that passage (Romans 3:21-31) is clearly in reference to the works of the Mosaic Law,”
Ridiculous, since that would mean that all of this is merely the ritual portions of the Mosaic law:
1) Not understanding God
2) Not seeking after God
3) Being devoid of goodness
4) Having a throat that is an open sepulcher
5) Using our tongues for deceit
6) Having a mouth full of curing and bitterness
7) Having feet swift to shed blood
8) Having destruction and misery in all our ways
9) Having no fear of God
10) Being a part of the world, which is entirely guilty before God
And all of this leads up to verse 20-31, with verse 20, after the 19th, reading:
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Obviously the law Paul is referring to isn’t merely the ceremonial law. It is the moral law, which is valid at all times and for all people.
Matthew Jesus came not to abolish the law, but to fulfill it:
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.”
There is no “new: Law Matt 5:17
God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. He doesn’t change.
Hebrews 13:8 “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.”
The author has no clue about forgiveness and the fact that the penalty has been paid for the sin.
Nobody is let off scot free. Jesus paid for our sin and His righteousness is imputed to us.
Otherwise, NOBODY could make it to heaven. Our works CANNOT pay the penalty for sin.
He doesn’t understand legal transactions very well.
It’s FReepathon time.
Kind of expected for FR to be quirky.
For those interested, the Matthew Henry commentary on James 2:
http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/matthew-henry-complete/james/2.html
offers a Reformed perspective on faith and works.
He might off a lucid and compelling defense in his apologetics, but he does not offer an explanation.
The explanation is that the Catholic Church considers serious disagreements with its teachings to be heresy.
Why not just call serious disagreements, serious disagreements?
Because the word "heresy" invokes canon law. And that means that the Church makes a presumption of jurisdictional authority over all of humanity, and thereby strips people of the free will necessary to agree with and join the Church, or not.
This is simple logic. Law has no power outside of its jurisdiction. Therefore "heresy" can only truly be applied to Catholics who are under canon law, who seriously disagree with Church teachings.
But Catholics regularly tell non-Catholics that they are committing heresy by seriously disagreeing with Catholic teachings.
So either Catholics are wrong in their extension of the concept of heresy outside of the Church, or the Church actually presumes authority over the whole of humanity, whether humanity accepts the Church or not.
I wonder if Belloc mentioned any of this.
I doubt it.
>> But NOT Faith alone.
Faith plus, eh?
Faith plus what exactly?
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