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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

If you consult the Bible, you will find that God tells the Jews that His covenant with them is “forever.” And St. Paul repeats that in one of his epistles.

Yes, Jesus established a New Covenant. But God continues to keep the Old Covenant with the Jews. The Jews were offered the New Covenant, and many or most of them accepted it. But the Old Covenant will remain with those faithful Jews who have chosen to remain where they are.

Christianity fulfilled the promises made to Israel. It did not supersede them. Judaism still remains a religion to which God is faithful—so long as they are faithful to Him.

They are always welcome to come over to the New Covenant. But they are not damned for not doing so, so long as they are faithful to the Old Covenant. God repeatedly made that assurance in the Old Testament. “Forever” is forever. And St. Paul repeated that. Obviously Paul approved of conversion—he was converted himself. But he did not say that the Jews would all be damned if they remained faithful to the old Covenant.


15 posted on 10/07/2013 6:05:53 PM PDT by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: Cicero; All

” But the Old Covenant will remain with those faithful Jews who have chosen to remain where they are.”


Not only is this horrific heresy, offensive and hateful to the Jews who will die in their sins because you move not a single finger for them, but it is offensive to the sight of God. The law was fulfilled on the cross by Christ, the only one who was able to fulfill it. Under the law, outside of Jesus Christ, there is no salvation.

Joh_5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

Joh_3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

“Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.”
(Joh 10:24-29)

“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
(Joh 8:31-32)

Rom_3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.


19 posted on 10/07/2013 6:13:21 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (If anyone tells you it's a cookbook, don't believe them.)
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To: Cicero
But they are not damned for not doing so,

No one comes to the Father except through Christ.

If you are not in relationship with the Father His wrath is upon you; you are damned.

Of course, I usually use a softer terminology but these are the underlying truths.

32 posted on 10/07/2013 6:57:56 PM PDT by what's up
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To: Cicero
But the Old Covenant will remain with those faithful Jews who have chosen to remain where they are.

Christianity fulfilled the promises made to Israel. It did not supersede them. Judaism still remains a religion to which God is faithful—so long as they are faithful to Him.

The above statements are heresy.

36 posted on 10/07/2013 7:19:46 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: Cicero
They are always welcome to come over to the New Covenant. But they are not damned for not doing so, so long as they are faithful to the Old Covenant.
WRONG!!!!!!

Unless you confess that Jesus Christ is Lord you will NOT have eternal life.

Jesus Himself told the Jews that they MUST believe or die in their sins and be lost forever.

What you claim is heresy at best, at worse it is blasphemy.
79 posted on 10/07/2013 10:10:45 PM PDT by OneVike (I'm just a Christian waiting to go home)
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To: Cicero
This comment is not aimed at you as I pretty much agree with what you are saying UNLESS the individual Jew has been convicted by The Holy Spirit or rather the Holy Spirit reveals to them Jesus Christ. However Romans ch 11 goes into better detail.

GOD has not given up on Israel and Israel is not lost beyond redemption. A blood Covenant can not be broken.

25I want you to understand this mystery, dear brothers and sisters,£ so that you will not feel proud and start bragging. Some of the Jews have hard hearts, but this will last only until the complete number of Gentiles comes to Christ. 26And so all Israel will be saved. Do you remember what the prophets said about this? “A Deliverer will come from Jerusalem,£ and he will turn Israel£ from all ungodliness. 27And then I will keep my covenant with them and take away their sins.”£
28Many of the Jews are now enemies of the Good News. But this has been to your benefit, for God has given his gifts to you Gentiles. Yet the Jews are still his chosen people because of his promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. 29For God’s gifts and his call can never be withdrawn. 30Once, you Gentiles were rebels against God, but when the Jews refused his mercy, God was merciful to you instead. 31And now, in the same way, the Jews are the rebels, and God’s mercy has come to you. But someday they,£ too, will share in God’s mercy. 32For God has imprisoned all people in their own disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone.

I take All Israel to mean all of the twelve tribes who obey the laws, have not rejected GOD, and are observant Jews.

86 posted on 10/07/2013 10:43:27 PM PDT by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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To: Cicero; Greetings_Puny_Humans
They are always welcome to come over to the New Covenant. But they are not damned for not doing so, so long as they are faithful to the Old Covenant. God repeatedly made that assurance in the Old Testament. “Forever” is forever. And St. Paul repeated that. Obviously Paul approved of conversion—he was converted himself. But he did not say that the Jews would all be damned if they remained faithful to the old Covenant.

Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, said in Romans 11:

    I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel:

    “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”? And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

    What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened, as it is written:

    “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see and ears that could not hear, to this very day.” And David says:

    “May their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them. May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent forever.”

    Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!

    I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

    If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

    Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

    I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

    “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”

    As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

God has NOT negated His covenant with the nation of Israel, but they are on the back burner, so to speak, while the Times of the Gentiles (the dispensation of grace) are being fulfilled. NO ONE can be saved unless they receive Jesus Christ as Savior, believing in Him to redeem them from their sins. The Jews, as a nation, rejected Jesus as the Messiah (as prophecied that they would) and because of this, we gentiles can be grafted into the branch of Christ. But, MANY Jews HAVE accepted Jesus as their messiah and they are saved along with gentiles by faith. Those who do not believe are condemned already because they believe not in the only begotten Son of God - Jew OR gentile.

95 posted on 10/07/2013 11:20:33 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: Cicero; Greetings_Puny_Humans
Christianity fulfilled the promises made to Israel. It did not supersede them. Judaism still remains a religion to which God is faithful—so long as they are faithful to Him. They [the Jews] are always welcome to come over to the New Covenant. But they are not damned for not doing so, so long as they are faithful to the Old Covenant.

That is simply an untenable fantasy. According to Jesus, He did not come to make Jews better Jews apart from faith in Him, but reproved the Jews because they would not come to Him.

"Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me." "And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life." (John 5:39-40)

And He said when the Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin, it is essentially because they do not believe on Him.

"Of sin, because they believe not on me;" (John 16:9)

And when Paul said "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved, " (Romans 10:1) He was referring to devout Jews who,

"have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge." "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God." "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth." (Romans 10:2-4)

If the apostles had listened to you, they could have saved themselves a lot of suffering.

"And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased." (Galatians 5:11)

100 posted on 10/08/2013 2:15:21 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: Cicero
Yes, Jesus established a New Covenant. But God continues to keep the Old Covenant with the Jews. The Jews were offered the New Covenant, and many or most of them accepted it. But the Old Covenant will remain with those faithful Jews who have chosen to remain where they are.

Christianity fulfilled the promises made to Israel. It did not supersede them. Judaism still remains a religion to which God is faithful—so long as they are faithful to Him.

Wrong on so many levels.

Written by Paul, a Jew, circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, blameless,....

Galatians 2:15-21 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

Galatians 3:10-29 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.

To give a human example, brothers: even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.

Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.

Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.

115 posted on 10/08/2013 6:44:58 AM PDT by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of faith....)
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To: Cicero
Clearly you have never read the book of Hebrews.

Hebrews 10 crushes your arguement.

verse 1: For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

verse 9: Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

read more here: http://biblehub.com/hebrews/10.htm
195 posted on 10/09/2013 7:14:34 AM PDT by P220
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