Posted on 10/04/2013 2:11:50 PM PDT by jodyel
Present Tribulation vs. Future Tribulation, Dr. Thomas Ice
Over the years I have noticed an argument against pretribulationism which goes something like the following: "The New Testament teaches that we will suffer persecution and tribulation as followers of Christ, therefore, I believe the Church will go through the tribulation." The New Testament does teach that Believers will suffer persecution and tribulation, but it does not follow that because of this the Church will go through the tribulation.
Church Age Tribulation
Jesus clearly teaches that the Church Age, before the rapture and the tribulation, would be a time in which Believers would experience "tribulation" from the world. Jesus said,
"If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you, 'A slave is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also" (John 15:18-20).
"These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world" (John 16:33).
It is said of the Apostles in the early Church:
"So they went on their way from the presence of the Council, rejoicing that they had been considered worthy to suffer shame for His name" (Acts 5:41).
Later it was also said,
"strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying, 'Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God'" (Acts 14:22).
Paul tells us,
"For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake" (Phil. 1:29).
Paul wrote in his farewell epistle,
"Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted" (2 Tim. 3:12).
Peter noted the following:
"But to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing; so that also at the revelation of His glory, you may rejoice with exultation" (1 Pet. 4:13).
Therefore, there is a clear biblical basis for expecting Church Age persecution from the world toward believers.
Gerald Stanton declares the following about Church Age tribulation:
And one has but to think of Christians being thrown to the lions in a Roman arena, or Christians being torn on the racks of a Spanish Inquisition, or Christians today being put to death in godless Communistic lands to realize that believers have undergone fiery trials down through the years since the days of the early church. Such persecutions with their untold agony, no matter how severe, are nevertheless not "the great tribulation." If they were, one could hardly read Fox's Book of Martyrs without concluding that there have been two or three "great tribulations" every century from the time of Christ.
Down through the centuries, believers have suffered, bled, and died for their faith in Christ, counting it not loss to seal their testimony with their blood. [1]
I have read from various sources that at least 100,000 believers die each year throughout the world in our own day and age, not to mention the various levels of persecution short of death that goes on as well. These are the Church Age tribulations that the New Testament speaks of in relation to believers throughout the entire dispensation of the Church.
The point is that non-pretribulationists believe that future tribulation during the seven-year tribulation is basically more of the same kind of persecution that has been going on for the last two thousand years. On the other hand, pretribulationists believe that the Bible indicates that tribulation during the future seven-years will be something that has never been seen before, it will be the judgment from God upon a Christ-rejecting world. What has been going on since the founding of the Church about two thousand years ago has been the animosity of Satan, his demons and the hatred of the unbelieving world, not the wrath of God.
The Tribulation
The tribulation, which is spoken of dozens of times with various labels like "day of the Lord," time of "wrath," "the tribulation," etc., is mentioned throughout the Bible. Some of the many references include passages throughout almost all of the prophets, the Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24:4, 28; Mark 13:3, 23), and most of the Book of Revelation (4-19). That time is referred to throughout Revelation as the wrath of the Lamb or God. Note the following: "the wrath of the Lamb" (6:16); "for the great day of their wrath has come" (6:17); [God's] "Thy wrath" (11:18); "he will also drink of the wine of the wrath of God" (14:10); "and threw them into the great wine press of the wrath of God" (14:19); "seven plagues, which are the last, because in them the wrath of God is finished" (15:1); "seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God" (15:7); "Go and pour out the seven bowls of the wrath of God into the earth" (16:1); "Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath" (16:19); "He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God" (19:15).
It is quite clear in the biblical text that tribulation is a time of God's wrath, not of mankind or of Satan. Scripture speaks of some episodes of Satan and the world against God's people, but the emphasis is clearly upon the wrath of God throughout. In fact, throughout the tribulation there is first a fourth of the earth's population that is killed (Rev. 6:8), then a third is killed (Rev. 9:18), and finally, by the end, all unbelievers are killed (Matt. 13:40, 43; 25:31, 46; Rev. 19:11, 16). Obviously, these passages speak of a time unlike anything that has ever happened throughout the Church Age. Kept from the Hour
Clearly the New Testament teaches that the Church will be kept from the time of God's wrath. Paul, in one of his earliest epistles makes note of this fact as follows:
"...and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come" (1 Thess. 1:10).
In the same epistle he says,
"For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess. 5:9).
Paul assumes the much used Old Testament term "wrath" to mean what it does in the Old Testament, which is the time of God's wrath or the tribulation period when God's wrath will be poured out upon the earth. Thus, these two passages, which speak of a future time different than the current Church Age which they were in, clearly see that wrath occurring during the tribulation. Therefore, the Thessalonian believers and all Church Age believers have a promise from God that we will not experience the wrath of God. A similar point is made from Paul's statement in Romans 5:9.
Revelation 3:10 says,
"Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell upon the earth."
This promise made to the Church of Philadelphia and thus all believers throughout the Church Age promises that we will be kept out of the time of the tribulation. This passage has very clear pre-trib implications. The "hour" or "time" of testing is what believers will be kept from. Further, the hour of testing is said to be something that will in the future come upon the whole earth. Thus, it is clear that it is not something that has happened during the days of the Church Age, since no one knows of a global testing that came upon the whole earth since the first century. John speaks in this passage of the tribulation period, which is clearly a time in which the Lord will test the earth dwellers (always persistent unbelievers throughout Revelation) and not Church Age believers. The passage makes it clear that the present Church Age is when the Church is being tested and that is the reason given for why we will be exempted from the time period when God will test the earth dwellers during the period we know as the tribulation.
Conclusion
The Bible distinguishes between trials and tribulations that are destined to occur to Believers during the Church Age from the wrath of God, which will be poured out during the tribulation that is intended for the world. To say that the Church will go through the tribulation because the Bible predicts that Believers will experience tribulation is an erroneous statement in light of the Bible's distinction between present and future tribulation. It is also more likely for an American, who has not experience persecution yet, to think that we must, since America has a different history in relation to Christianity than is common throughout the Church Age.
I have often heard Dr. Ed Hindson make an excellent analogy concerning this issue. He says that having the Church, which is pictured in the New Testament as the Bride of Christ, go through the tribulation is like a man taking a girl to whom he is engaged and beating her to the point of near death and then saying, "Hey babe, let's get married." Such behavior would rightly be thought to be crazy. The New Testament clearly teaches that Christ marries the Bride in heaven (Rev. 19:7-10) before she accompanies Him to earth. She is already in heaven since she was raptured before the tribulation in order to experience the judgment seat of Christ during the tribulation. Therefore she is ready, married and victoriously returning to earth at the second coming with Christ (Rev. 19:11-21). Only the pre-trib scenario makes sense of the details, thus demonstrating that the belief that the Church needs to go through the wrath of the tribulation is a false conclusion. Maranatha!
Endnotes
[1] Gerald B. Stanton, Kept from the Hour: A Systematic Study of the Rapture in Bible Prophecy (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1956), pp. 33-34.
No, I’m NOT playing a game, editor. Nor do I want to turn myself in tonight for making a post personal. If you want to talk about Bible Scripture, post the one or more you’re specifically referring to. And I can already tell you that with your last post, you are completely wrong. There is a GREAT DIFFERENCE between that which was “SPOKEN by the mouths of all [God’s] holy prophets SINCE the world began”, and that which was “KEPT SECRET SINCE the world began.” ONE is the subject of PROPHECY. The OTHER is the subject of the MYSTERY. They are NOT all jumbled together into Abraham. Now, read some Scripture to follow along, or don’t post to me concerning this. I’m trying to get us to the beginning, the same page here.
The Idaean Mother of the Gods (Cybele) was brought from Pessinus, Phrygia to Rome per a prophesy of the pagan oracles that Rome would fall unless they did. Rome was at the time the center of paganism. It is believed that part of St. Peters was designed after that temple to Cybele. To understand the pagan history of Rome is to understand the beginnings of the RCC.
This one makes as much sense...
*************
3:1 Ow-nay e-thay erpent-say as-way ore-may ubtil-say an-thay
any-ay east-bay of-ay e-thay ield-fay ich-whay e-thay ORD-Lay Od-
gay ad-hay ade-may. And-ay e-hay aid-say unto-ay e-thay oman-
way, Ea-yay, ath-hay Od-gay aid-say, E-yay all-shay ot-nay eat-ay
of-ay every-ay ee-tray of-ay e-thay arden-gay?
3:2 And-ay e-thay oman-way aid-say unto-ay e-thay erpent-say, E-
way ay-may eat-ay of-ay e-thay uit-fray of-ay e-thay ees-tray of-
ay e-thay arden-gay:
3:3 Ut-bay of-ay e-thay uit-fray of-ay e-thay ee-tray ich-whay is-
ay in-ay e-thay idst-may of-ay e-thay arden-gay, Od-gay ath-hay
aid-say, E-yay all-shay ot-nay eat-ay of-ay it-ay, either-nay all-
shay e-yay ouch-tay it-ay, est-lay e-yay ie-day.
3:4 And-ay e-thay erpent-say aid-say unto-ay e-thay oman-way, E-
yay all-shay ot-nay urely-say ie-day:
3:5 Or-fay Od-gay oth-day ow-knay at-thay in-ay e-thay ay-day e-
yay eat-ay ereof-thay, en-thay our-yay eyes-ay all-shay e-bay
opened-ay, and-ay e-yay all-shay e-bay as-ay ods-gay, owing-knay
ood-gay and-ay evil-ay.
3:6 And-ay en-whay e-thay oman-way aw-say at-thay e-thay ee-
tray as-way ood-gay or-fay ood-fay, and-ay at-thay it-ay as-way
easant-play o-tay e-thay eyes-ay, and-ay a-ay ee-tray o-tay e-bay
esired-day o-tay ake-may one-ay ise-way, e-shay ook-tay of-ay e-
thay uit-fray ereof-thay, and-ay id-day eat-ay, and-ay ave-gay also-
ay unto-ay er-hay usband-hay ith-way er-hay; and-ay e-hay id-day
eat-ay.
3:7 And-ay e-thay eyes-ay of-ay em-thay oth-bay ere-way opened-
ay, and-ay ey-thay ew-knay at-thay ey-thay ere-way aked-nay; and-
ay ey-thay ewed-say ig-fay eaves-lay ogether-tay, and-ay ade-may
emselves-thay aprons-ay.
3:8 And-ay ey-thay eard-hay e-thay oice-vay of-ay e-thay ORD-Lay
Od-gay alking-way in-ay e-thay arden-gay in-ay e-thay ool-cay of-
ay e-thay ay-day: and-ay Adam-ay and-ay is-hay ife-way id-hay
emselves-thay om-fray e-thay esence-pray of-ay e-thay ORD-Lay
Od-gay amongst-ay e-thay ees-tray of-ay e-thay arden-gay.
3:9 And-ay e-thay ORD-Lay Od-gay alled-cay unto-ay Adam-ay, and-
ay aid-say unto-ay im-hay, Ere-whay art-ay ou-thay?
3:10 And-ay e-hay aid-say, I-ay eard-hay y-thay oice-vay in-ay e-
thay arden-gay, and-ay I-ay as-way afraid-ay, ecause-bay I-ay as-
way aked-nay; and-ay I-ay id-hay yself-may.
3:11 And-ay e-hay aid-say, O-whay old-tay ee-thay at-thay ou-thay
ast-way aked-nay? Ast-hay ou-thay eaten-ay of-ay e-thay ee-tray,
ereof-whay I-ay ommanded-cay ee-thay at-thay ou-thay ouldest-
shay ot-nay eat-ay?
3:12 And-ay e-thay an-may aid-say, E-thay oman-way om-whay ou-
thay avest-gay o-tay e-bay ith-way e-may, e-shay ave-gay e-may
of-ay e-thay ee-tray, and-ay I-ay id-day eat-ay.
3:13 And-ay e-thay ORD-Lay Od-gay aid-say unto-ay e-thay oman-
way, At-whay is-ay is-thay at-thay ou-thay ast-hay one-day? And-
ay e-thay oman-way aid-say, E-thay erpent-say eguiled-bay e-may,
and-ay I-ay id-day eat-ay.
3:14 And-ay e-thay ORD-Lay Od-gay aid-say unto-ay e-thay erpent-
say, Ecause-bay ou-thay ast-hay one-day is-thay, ou-thay art-ay
ursed-cay above-ay all-ay attle-cay, and-ay above-ay every-ay
east-bay of-ay e-thay ield-fay; upon-ay y-thay elly-bay alt-shay
ou-thay o-gay, and-ay ust-day alt-shay ou-thay eat-ay all-ay e-thay
ays-day of-ay y-thay ife-lay:
3:15 And-ay I-ay ill-way ut-pay enmity-ay etween-bay ee-thay
and-ay e-thay oman-way, and-ay etween-bay y-thay eed-say and-ay
er-hay eed-say; it-ay all-shay uise-bray y-thay ead-hay, and-ay ou-
thay alt-shay uise-bray is-hay eel-hay.
3:16 Unto-ay e-thay oman-way e-hay aid-say, I-ay ill-way eatly-
gray ultiply-may y-thay orrow-say and-ay y-thay onception-cay; in-
ay orrow-say ou-thay alt-shay ing-bray orth-fay ildren-chay; and-ay
y-thay esire-day all-shay e-bay o-tay y-thay usband-hay, and-ay e-
hay all-shay ule-ray over-ay ee-thay.
3:17 And-ay unto-ay Adam-ay e-hay aid-say, Ecause-bay ou-thay
ast-hay earkened-hay unto-ay e-thay oice-vay of-ay y-thay ife-way,
and-ay ast-hay eaten-ay of-ay e-thay ee-tray, of-ay ich-whay I-ay
ommanded-cay ee-thay, aying-say, Ou-thay alt-shay ot-nay eat-ay
of-ay it-ay: ursed-cay is-ay e-thay ound-gray or-fay y-thay ake-
say; in-ay orrow-say alt-shay ou-thay eat-ay of-ay it-ay all-ay e-
thay ays-day of-ay y-thay ife-lay;
3:18 Orns-thay also-ay and-ay istles-thay all-shay it-ay ing-bray
orth-fay o-tay ee-thay; and-ay ou-thay alt-shay eat-ay e-thay erb-
hay of-ay e-thay ield-fay;
3:19 In-ay e-thay eat-sway of-ay y-thay ace-fay alt-shay ou-thay
eat-ay ead-bray, ill-tay ou-thay eturn-ray unto-ay e-thay ound-
gray; or-fay out-ay of-ay it-ay ast-way ou-thay aken-tay: or-fay
ust-day ou-thay art-ay, and-ay unto-ay ust-day alt-shay ou-thay
eturn-ray.
3:20 And-ay Adam-ay alled-cay is-hay ife’s-way ame-nay Eve-ay;
ecause-bay e-shay as-way e-thay other-may of-ay all-ay iving-lay.
3:21 Unto-ay Adam-ay also-ay and-ay o-tay is-hay ife-way id-day
e-thay ORD-Lay Od-gay ake-may oats-cay of-ay ins-skay, and-ay
othed-clay em-thay. ...
The hill the Vatican sits on was a burial ground for higher ups in the pagan city. If you read the pagan history of the “seven hills” you can begin to understand the Revelation references. “The city that sits on seven hills”.
It ALL makes sense now. Sadly. The prince of the power of the air resting comfortably there, knowing he is safe and will never be cast out..
They are doing much of his work for him. Another pagan enters in there also and that’s Simon Magus. Simon Magus more than Simon Peter is where the RCC started, many of the early Romans didn’t distinguish the difference and neither has the RCC.
I’m going to google him right now. I’ll be back...
I'm betting that woman can be traced, too...
What do you think the “mystery” is?
There always have been Gentiles, so that can’t be it.
Gosh, can it be that the seed of Abraham is somehow hiding there?
Still no scripture to support your view? Irrelevant without scripture.
Yep. Opinion. Still dead. No Scripture.
The dove staff of the Illumaniti is referred to as the "virge", meaning Virgin and is an occult reference to Minerva.
The Roman Goddess Minerva is based on the Greek Athena, who in turn is based on earlier Egyptian goddesses such as Isis and Neith.
Minerva was "Immaculately Conceived".
Minerva is known as the "Ever-Virginal Goddess".
From Google search: Minerva. Various sites.
But I'm sure it's just coincidental. Those crazy Catholics! ALWAYS wanting to joke around and make people laugh...
Eye opening isn’t it?
It's a duck.
>> “They are doing much of his work for him. Another pagan enters in there also and that’s Simon Magus. Simon Magus more than Simon Peter is where the RCC started, many of the early Romans didn’t distinguish the difference and neither has the RCC.” <<
.
Absolute fact!
He was known as Shimon, and he had a reputation as a sorcerer.
:)
aawww!
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