Posted on 10/04/2013 2:11:50 PM PDT by jodyel
Mods have to start SOMEwhere!
are you with me so far? Stomp once for yes, twice for no...
Once again you either don’t comprehend what was written either by WVKayaker or what is written in scripture. Let’s first look at what WVKayaker posted.
>>>“ The next book, most commonly referred to as the Acts of the Apostles, records the beginnings of his church. It includes the upper room testament of the indwelling spirit of God. It includes Peter's vision on a rooftop where he is clearly told that those foods were no longer forbidden.”<<<
Notice I have highlighted includes. What includes? The book of Acts includes. Not one verse, not one chapter, but the book of Acts includes.
But your response was.
>>That is where a sloppy reading of the word will take one.
First, it should be clear that “upper Room” had to be a mistranslation when it was translated into the Greek.<<
Now where in WVKayaker’s post did he say that it all happened in the upper room? Then you make another error in either reading or comprehension. You claim that “since all of the hundreds of people mentioned would not have been able to squeeze into a bedroom.” Now neither WVKayaker nor scripture say they were still in that upper room when all those people came. Why did you assume that the events in chapter 1 of Acts happened in the exact same place as the events of Acts chapter 2? Scripture doesn’t say that. We can easily surmise that they had moved since chapter two starts out with “And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.” There would have been no need for that statement if we were supposed to think it was the same place and the same time frame.
Yet your inclination was to claim error in scripture translation. A rather telling statement on your part. Still you have the audacity to accuse others of “sloppy reading of the word”. Go figure.
Actually, Acts 2 says that it happened “in the House.”
Those who haven’t been able to understand the difference between God dealing strictly with Israel, this church age or age of grace, and the time when He will deal specifically with Israel again will never understand. There is no sense in trying until that understanding is clear.
This gets tedious. Show you proof that they stayed in that house after the multitudes showed up having heard about them speaking in tongues. Could there be some time lapse for those in the city to have heard about it or do you suppose someone from that house ran like a madman around town telling about these guys speaking different languages and the multitude rushed over that very minute in droves? Huh? Let’s see you evidence they were still in that house.
I posted the portion of Acts 2 that deals with it.
Not one portion of that passage you posted makes claim they stayed within the house.
>> “ do you agree that Christ coming IN THE AIR for a group of people is DIFFERENT than Christ RETURNING to this earth for group of people?” <<
.
Returning in the air is, in the way things are usually understood Biblically, the same as returning to the Earth.
I think that the difference is in two writers styles.
There is no palpable evidence that his return to the surface of the Earth will be other than the Tabernacles fulfillment.
He can make war with Satan, for example, without being on the surface of the Earth. If he gathers people that are on the Earth, he still can be “in the air” (whatever that actually means anyway)
Yeshua’s own words in the Olivet seem to call for a single gathering, do they not?
I personally do not believe they were “in the house” at all.
I suspect that the “house” mentioned is likely a structure that was on the mount. Probably a large shaded pavilion of some kind.
There seems to be a tendency by some to believe that we are under the Law. But, Paul was the writer of most of the New Testament, and there is general agreement that his words were/are inspired through the Holy Spirit.
No, I will have to correct you in this - I doubt anyone here believes we are 'under the law'. No one here, I will venture to say, believes they are justified by anything other than grace. But I would assert, despite the interpretation some would impose upon Paul, that we are still bound to the law - not by curses, but by a love of YHWH and a desire to keep the ways of His House. An adopted child takes on the rules of his new father, and the rules of the father remain unchanged.
And while we are at it, the connotation of 'law' is somewhat harsh - the term 'instructions' is closer to the truth, albeit that 'law' is easier to write and relate, because of it's longstanding use. likewise, the 'Holy Days' of YHWH are better understood as 'rehearsals' in the true sense... Their sanctification seems to primarily be for the purpose of causing folks to show up to 'practice'. There is a purpose for their sanctity, and they perform a particular function. Like everything else, the law must be considered for it's prophetic value - ignore it at your peril.
To defend my points above, as I have elsewhere, I must first and foremost point to the logical fallacy that one can identify the terms sin, wickedness, or iniquity without an inherent inclusion of Torah - All three are defined by action against the Torah. For example, when Yeshua accuses those he never knew, He calls them 'workers of iniquity'... Workers of 'lawlessness'. How can one begin to understand the concept of 'lawlessness' without some admission toward a necessary 'law' that one is without? I believe He is, by definition, accusing them of being without Torah. Likewise, when he accuses a 'wicked generation'... 'Wickedness' is the twisting of the Torah.
And to further the point, and I can not stress this enough, not only does the prophecy explicitly declare that we are certainly heading toward the keeping of Torah by the whole world, but I defy anyone who thinks to interpret the prophets without a solid knowledge of the Torah!
As an instance:
1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
(e-Sword:KJV)
One is ignorant of what is being said here, if one does not know that the 'times and seasons' refer with specificity to the Torah - To the Holy Days and Sabbaths, to the Jubilees. Furthermore, the phrase 'No one knows the day or the hour' speaks perfectly to an exact day and an exact hour, which any Jew can surely affirm - So the generic Christian tradition that His coming will be as a 'thief in the night', and that no man knows 'the day or the hour', but we can kinda tell the 'time and the season', a tradition built wholly upon the NT, without consideration of the OT, is completely invalid! And a reasonable examination of the exquisite timing of Yeshua's ministry, and to-the-minute/second fulfillment of the Spring Feasts will be all the confirmation one should need to know the very same will happen with the fall feasts.
But Christians, prideful and stuck in their ways, refuse to give up their (even yet) Roman traditions, and Greek philosophies, and open their eyes to SEE! What should it look like when one truly does 'Come out of her, my people'? Doesn't that mean (like every other time) a return to the Torah, the Holy Days, and in that, the ways of the Early Church?
To wit, my FRiends, the great apostasy, the great falling away that everyone is expecting, may very well have been ongoing for the last two thousand years. Yet again, people will not see. They worship as THEY see fit, or as their church sees fit, listening to the traditions of men in favor of the words of YHWH and His Messiah (which must be, by the nature of an unchanging God, one and the same thing).
So, here we are this morning arguing about how many angels are dancing on a pinhead. Instead, we should be studying the Scriptures and seeking God's face. But, it's easy to be caught up with argument and forget about the prize. The prize is the free gift from God, our eternal salvation and the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit in our lives to bring us through this life and into the next. God is a spirit and we must worship him in spirit and in truth. The Bible says it, I believe it, and I look forward to eternity.
Oh but I will have to disagree - What is happening here is particularly what must happen. This IS studying scripture, and it IS seeking his face. I do not come forward in animosity toward my fellows and FRiends, But rather, like a watchman on the wall, as the Spirit has lead me. I cannot be quiet, or that which I have been lead to speak will be counted upon my own head, along with the blood of my fellows. And if I am wrongly lead, then I need the concretions I believe to be true ground off of me - Steel sharpens steel.
This is not about judgement, which is way above my pay grade, but rather about knowledge and about truth. What good is grace if one knows not sin? What good is forgiveness unless one knows how to 'go and sin no more?'
The perniciousness of christmas, as an example, is not in it's heathen origins, which have supposedly been 'christianized', but rather, in it's distraction from the truth - YHWH has a Holy Day to celebrate the birth of Yeshua, complete with a formidable tradition and wonderful customs and decorations, whose symbolism and meaning far outstrips the baubles and things of christmas. But being distracted by the participation in christmas means that one will never find the meaning one would find in participation in the true day. The same applies to the Sabbath Day, and every other day appointed and approved by YHWH.
I am convicted, FRiends, with all of my heart, that antichrist finds it's way not in direct opposition, but in mild and holy seeming distraction.
Um, no they aren’t. We “meet Him in the air” is different than when He returns to set foot on the mount. At the rapture He comes in the cloud and we “meet Him in the air”.
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Then seven years later He comes as the conquering King to fight the armies of the world we are with Him.
Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Yeah, so you told us. You claimed scripture has errors in it and you know the truth rather than the Holy Spirit.
This post of yours if very heartfelt, roamer. I know it comes from the bottom of your heart. There are so many things,though, that is in contrast to the Body of Christ, these days we are living in. I will post to you again after I have gathered together the information from Scripture that proves that point. I am not ignoring your post, I just want my next post to you to be as heart-felt as yours. Regards, smvoice
>> “Then seven years later...” <<
.
Everything else is reasonable conjecture, but that is dead wrong. No scripture supports a pre-trib rapture, and no scripture supports any trib that is not 3.5 years.
If you had scripture to support these, you surely would have proudly posted them, by now.
I believe that they were on the mount because they were devout Torah observant men, who would have been nowhere but where they were required to be.
This is one point that tracks solidly through the gospels; their attendance for the feasts was predictably perfect.
>> I am convicted, FRiends, with all of my heart, that antichrist finds it's way not in direct opposition, but in mild and holy seeming distraction.<<
You may be convicted but it’s obvious that all of scripture has clearly not yet been revealed to you.
Except for the decision at the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15....
I posted some of them and you denied them. You also claimed some were translated in error. Are you kidding me? Spend time posting what you deny or claim is a translation error?
No, you’ve never posted anything in support, just large unrelated elephant-hurling spam.
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