Joel Osteen’s Lakewood Megachurch
43,500 weekly attendance
Posted on 08/27/2013 11:53:37 AM PDT by NYer
Megachurch. Two young ladies. Both had left the Catholic Church. Both were now attending “megachurches.” We had a good chat together. I wanted to understand their reasons for why they left the Catholic Church for a megachurch.
Joel Osteen’s Lakewood Megachurch
43,500 weekly attendance
I was at the bank and somehow I got into a spiritual conversation with two Hispanic executives that worked there.
When I asked why they exchanged the Catholic Church for the megachurch, they gave me a number of reasons:
Although these two ladies didn’t articulate it explicitly to me, I could tell that they were very proud of their new churches. I could also discern in them a surprise that I am so “spiritual” and yet I am very excited about being Catholic. They assumed the “with it” people were leaving Catholicism for the bigger and better and deal.
I asked them what they miss about being Catholic. They replied with two answers:
I asked both about the Eucharist: “Don’t you miss the Eucharist?”
This question didn’t phase them one bit. “Oh we still have communion. They pass out little crackers and cups of juice. I like this better because I thought drinking from one big cup is icky. Spreads germs.”
“But in the Catholic Church,” I replied, “we believe that the Eucharist is the real Body and Blood of Jesus?”
I may as well have said, “Don’t you know that there are Martians in my back pocket.” She was unaware that the Catholic Church taught this. No idea.
This, my brothers and sisters, is the crux of the problem. These girls were raised as Catholics, but did not know about the Eucharist. They did not know that the Eucharist is God. They did not understand the Holy Eucharist is the center of the Catholic tradition.
So when they compare our ho-hum Catholic music and pedestrian sermons to snazzy well produced musical productions and highly polished bulleted sermons from handsome professional speakers…where are they going to go?
If they had believed that the Holy Eucharist is truly the Lord Jesus Christ, then they would have stayed. This is the task of the New Evangelization if there is going to be one. Can we communicate the mystery of Eucharist. If we fail in that, everyone is leaving the building.
Godspeed,
Taylor
PS: I don’t mean to suggest that having the Holy Eucharist is an excuse for bad music, bad vestments, bad architecture, and bad sermons. The Eucharist is like a precious diamond. It deserves a platinum setting…not a plastic setting. We can’t say, “Well, we have the Eucharist – so you’re forced to stay and have a miserable experience every Sunday.” We can’t keep the sacraments hostage to mediocracy.
PPS: With 1 billion strong, the Catholic Church is the real megachurch!
Pope Francis at Rio de Janeiro
3 million people
The doctrine of the Triune God is taught throughout the ENTIRE Bible - both the Old and New Testaments. Here are a few sites that demonstrate that Scripture DOES lay out the doctrine quite well:
The Biblical Doctrine of the Trinity
It is undeniable that from the very start the first Christians were taught the truth of the Trinity and that Jesus, as the Son of God, is the second person of the Trinity. What the church did at Nicea was to condense the doctrine into a creed format that was useful for believers to memorize and to be able to continue to teach that truth. It did NOT, however, take the Christian church that long to "come up with" the doctrine - it had been taught and believed from the start.
Not to be nit-picky, but there are 23 pairs of chromosomes in a human cell.
Did you get that last point? If Jesus got ALL OF HIS (chromosomes) from his mother, then, because the woman has two copies of the X sex chromosome and a male offspring HAD to have gotten the Y chromosome from someone other than his mother, you cannot say that Jesus came ONLY from Mary's body. We don't really know exactly how Jesus became implanted in Mary's womb, but we DO know it was not from normal procreation.
BTW...that snide and un-Christ like comment about Metmom's children was uncalled for. I think you owe HER an apology.
Throughout the New Testament - which the Apostles and their disciples wrote under the direct leading of the Holy Spirit and which the assembly of believers all over the known world copied and studied - we have ALL the passages that were used by the attendees at Nicea to create that creed. We also have writings from leaders in the church going back to that first century arguing FROM Scripture proving the deity of Jesus. You're correct that heresies cropped up right away over the false doctrines rejecting that Jesus was God incarnate (3 guesses where they came from), but they were successfully defeated because they (and we) had the Scriptures and the illumination of them in the hearts of those believers to receive them. Why it is hard to explain is due to both the hardness of people's hearts and the efforts of Satan to cause confusion and corrupt the Gospel. Those who have surrendered their lives to Christ and who are led by the Holy Spirit accept the truths by faith.
What, you don't think we have a copy of the scriptures??? That wasn't it...Jesus knew they didn't believe anything...Jesus knew that they didn't believe he was the Messiah...Jesus knew that from the beginning...
Which He said about 5 or 6 times, so they couldn't miss it.
Luk 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
Luk 10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.
Psa 25:14 The secret of the LORD is with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant.
Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Mat 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
And THAT is why Jesus didn't call them back to tell them the truth...
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
1Co 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
1Co 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
Yep...And your religion also has a lot of non Christians in its body of Christ...Your religion even claims the body of Christ is full of tares along with the wheat...
Sorry, but that's not the Body of Christ...
WHY do we ‘need’ any NT at ALL??
Did not Jesus say, “...they have Moses and the prophets...”?
Didn’t Paul ‘reason with them from the (OT) Scriptures’?
Were not THOUSANDS converted and their names written in the Lamb’s Book of Life LONG before the NT was assembled?
“MY yoke is EASY!
and MY burden is LIGHT!”
John 6:51-58
The Council of Jerusalem IS Scripture. You know that, right?
Wikipedia has a very good description of what Marian devotion is and what it is not. Here is the link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marian_devotions
Genesis 9:4 But you shall not eat flesh with its life , that is, its blood.
Leviticus 3:17 It shall be a statute forever throughout your generations, in all your dwelling places, that you eat neither fat nor blood.”
Leviticus 7:26-27 Moreover, you shall eat no blood whatever, whether of fowl or of animal, in any of your dwelling places. Whoever eats any blood, that person shall be cut off from his people.”
Leviticus 17:10-14 “If any one of the house of Israel or of the strangers who sojourn among them eats any blood, I will set my face against that person who eats blood and will cut him off from among his people. For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it for you on the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that makes atonement by the life. Therefore I have said to the people of Israel, No person among you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger who sojourns among you eat blood.
“Any one also of the people of Israel, or of the strangers who sojourn among them, who takes in hunting any beast or bird that may be eaten shall pour out its blood and cover it with earth. For the life of every creature is its blood: its blood is its life. Therefore I have said to the people of Israel, You shall not eat the blood of any creature, for the life of every creature is its blood. Whoever eats it shall be cut off.
Leviticus 19:26 “You shall not eat any flesh with the blood in it. You shall not interpret omens or tell fortunes.
Deuteronomy 12:16 Only you shall not eat the blood ; you shall pour it out on the earth like water.
Deuteronomy 12:23 Only be sure that you do not eat the blood, for the blood is the life , and you shall not eat the life with the flesh.
Deuteronomy 15:23 Only you shall not eat its blood; you shall pour it out on the ground like water.
Acts 15:12-29 And all the assembly fell silent, and they listened to Barnabas and Paul as they related what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles. After they finished speaking, James replied, “Brothers, listen to me. Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take from them a people for his name. And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written,
“‘After this I will return, and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen; I will rebuild its ruins, and I will restore it, that the remnant of mankind may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who are called by my name, says the Lord, who makes these things known from of old.’
Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood. For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues.”
Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They sent Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brothers, with the following letter:
“The brothers, both the apostles and the elders, to the brothers who are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia, greetings. Since we have heard that some persons have gone out from us and troubled you with words, unsettling your minds, although we gave them no instructions, it has seemed good to us, having come to one accord, to choose men and send them to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will tell you the same things by word of mouth. For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.”
Word for *flesh* in:
John 6:51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56
http://bible.cc/john/6-51.htm
John 6:63
http://biblos.com/john/6-63.htm
The word for *flesh* is the same in BOTH verses.
http://biblesuite.com/greek/4561.htm
sarx: flesh
Short Definition: flesh, body
Definition: flesh, body, human nature, materiality; kindred.
It is the exact same word used in Galatians 5 and Romans 8. There is also much more commentary at this link:http://biblesuite.com/greek/4561.htm
which I would post but would show up in HTML and mess up a simple post.
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However, it is NOT the same word as used in the Last Supper....
Matthew Mark 14:22, Luke 22:19, Matthew 26:26, 1 Corinthians 11:24, 27, 29
soma: a body
Short Definition: body, flesh
Definition: body, flesh; the body of the Church.
There is also a more in depth analysis of the word *soma* at this link: http://biblesuite.com/greek/4983.htm
***********************************************************************
It goes to prove that what Jesus said in John 6 and during the Last Supper do not refer to the same thing. Therefore He did not mean the same thing.
What He gave the disciples to eat and said was his body was not sarx but soma. There’s a reason He used a different word.
Therefore, by a brief study of the Bible, we can conclusively see that the Catholic teaching on the eating of the literal flesh of Jesus is wrong.
No; not really.
Thanks for the honesty. I think it really does explain a lot, that Catholics have had thousands of years of contemplation on what these mysteries mean.
Wow, with that kind of logic, we can conclusively see that "metmom" is not "you", and "you" are not "yourself", because they are different words.
I am dumbfounded that a person who claims to be a Class A (Catholic) Christian would ask that question...
Does that mean you can answer it?
PS: I know why. I was asking to see what the other guy thought, since he was asserting that the flesh of Jesus is of no worth to us.
Well, then. We non-Catholics reserve the right to define Catholicism for you all.
But the EOs protest against Rome, disagreeing substantially, while RCs protest lesser degrees of broadbrushing, or even referring to the RCC as "Rome." But the protest of Protestantism was not simply against Rome, but against all those who exalt themselves above Scripture as the supreme and sure authority.
Thus those (evangelicals) who hold to Scripture as supreme as the wholly inspired word of God after its basic historical literal hermeneutic (so that historical narratives are treated as such, not as fables as in much of RC scholarship) have overall exhibited a common front against both cults and Rome.
John 6:35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.
Why don't Catholics take this literally? He said He was bread. That would mean He was made of bread dough.
When Catholics take communion, do they ever get hungry again? Do they ever get thirsty again if they believe in Him. He said they wouldn't. What's the problem then with Catholics? Don't they believe Him?
And here is the security of the believer who believes in Jesus by faith.
John 6:39-40 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
John 6:47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.
Jesus says here that whoever BELIEVES HAS eternal life.
But wait a minute, you all claim that whoever EATS has eternal life. Which is it? Believing or eating? Which one is wrong?
John 6:50-51 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”
OK, where are all the Catholics who are living forever. Remember, we are taking this LITERALLY, focusing on the physical and material.
John 6:63-64 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
He's telling them right here that it is spiritual reality, not physical.
The Bible cannot contradict itself. Interpreting the passage literally that one needs to actually eat Jesus violates the rest of the OT and NT which prohibits the consumption of blood.
Also, interpreting that passage completely literally makes no sense and contradicts itself even within itself.
And taking if literally and metaphorically on a verse by verse basis is extremely poor hermanutics. It's what cults do and leads to error.
Jesus is clear that it's faith that saves one, believing in Him.
John 3:14-18 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
Well, then, the EO are Protestants, then, aren't they? Do they not protest against some of the same things that the Protestant Reformation protested against?
And yet FRoman Catholics and the RCC still consider THEM Catholics.
Who is this "we"?
The Orthodox maintain valid sacraments and substantially agree with the Catholic teachings. They fault us for two things, mainly. 1. A question of church authority resting in the pope as a final authority versus the body of all the bishops. 2. The western compulsion to attempt to define everything (driven by the heresies we are battling) That makes them very close to us.
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