Posted on 08/15/2013 7:03:11 PM PDT by annalex
Once a woman in the crowd surrounding Christ and His disciples cries out to Him:
Blessed is the womb that bore thee, and the paps that gave thee suck. (Luke 11:27)
What is it? We have, clearly, an act of venerating Mary. Note that the Blessed Virgin is venerated properly: not on her own but as the mother of Christ. Yet the reason for venerating is indeed concerning: it is her physiological and physiologically unique relationship with Jesus that is emphasized. That is not yet paganism with its crude theories of gods giving birth to other gods, but it is lacking proper focus and Jesus corrects it:
Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke 11:28)
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| The Virgin with the Child on her knees and a prophet pointing at the star. Catacomb of Priscilla, late 2nd c. Source |
Having gotten past this linguistic hurdle, we can understand clearly what this passage, Luke 11:27-28, does: it establishes veneration of saints based not on their blood relation to Christ but on their obedience to God. It is in that sense that we venerate Our Lady: given that Christ is the Word of God personified, she heard and kept both Him in person as her Child and His teaching, figuratively. In Mary the essence of sainthood is seen in the flesh as well as in the mind. We could say that by the late second century at the latest, when we find evidence of the veneration of both the prophets and the Mother of God in the catacombs, the two reasons to venerate a saint: his martyrdom as in the case of Polycarp, or his obedience to the Word, as in Mary, -- unite into a single practice.
The Scriptures are the standard, but nowhere in Scripture do we find a list of the books to be regarded as Holy Scripture. The general test for the Christian Scriptures was that they had to have apostolic authority. But the sifting among the many Christian writings was a gradual process. Skeptics claim that church authorities suppressed many authentic texts.
“Nearly missed this excellent post of yours, Harley. Exactly so: for differences between us cannot pass without a mutual challenge.”
Indeed, they are profound differences, though I don’t think you’re capable of explaining what those differences really are. I’ll stick with Christ, the Apostles, and all Christians through all ages. And you can stick to your dead Popes sitting on a stinking throne, cowering in fear of Jesus Christ as you plead vainly to be rescued by His mother.
“But that is simply the Catholic doctrine of salvation by grace alone.”
Are you sure you know what Catholic doctrine actually is? Last I checked, you thought salvation was by remaining in a state of grace through Roman Catholic sacraments. In fact, you spent a few posts in this thread saying ridiculous things about stuffing yourself into the holes in Jesus Christ, since Christ’s work was not sufficient. IOW, you merit grace be your obedience.
“Does “monergism” make God author of our sins?”
No, but it does make God the sole author of salvation though. Hence the “mono.”
This has been tried and failed. Angels could have been prayed to for help, as cries to Heaven for help abound, but instead only God is addressed, and is what is taught, with direct access and an all sufficient intercessor.
As for the doctrine, that is amply supported: eternal life being superior, people dead in Christ offering witness, prayer one for another having greater power, -- all these are doctrinal elements and they are wholly scriptural. You know what the word "doctrine" means, right?
That is absurd; all you have is a possibility, and likewise they may read our minds, etc., but zero evidence attesting them being prayed to, which is the real issue, and only a hypotheses that saints are even able to hear and respond to virtually infinite amounts of prayer. But in contrast you have abundant testimony in which only God is addressed in prayer to Heaven, and whom we are specifically instructed to address in prayer to Heaven, and are given direct access to God therein, and an all sufficient intercessor.
You simply do not make doctrines based on such conspicuous silence and conjecture, esp for a basic practice. You do not know what the word "sound doctrine" means, but as an RC suppose you can do whatever.
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
What a surprise. That is what St. Vincent or Lerins said. Why aren't you Catholic?
Aha. It is.
But God, (who is rich in mercy,) for his exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, [5] Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together in Christ, (by whose grace you are saved,) [6] And hath raised us up together, and hath made us sit together in the heavenly places, through Christ Jesus. [7] That he might shew in the ages to come the abundant riches of his grace, in his bounty towards us in Christ Jesus. [8] For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God; [9] Not of works, that no man may glory. [10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them.( Eph. 2)
Walk in them.
“Walk in them.”
Indeed, God certainly did predestinate us to do good works! For it is God who “worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure” (Php 2:13). I’m glad you’ve finally acknowledged that works are the results of salvation, and not the origin of it.
“What a surprise. That is what St. Vincent or Lerins said. Why aren’t you Catholic?”
????
“Annie Erin Clark, better known by her stage name St. Vincent, is an American singer-songwriter and multi-instrumentalist.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Vincent_(musician)
I’ll stick with the Prophets, the Apostles, and men like Augustine, over your stage performer.
Not really. A prayer to help is primarily a prayer for his councel as one who is human and has reached salvation. A prayer to an angel certainly is helpful, but him having no lower passions as I do I can't take his example of justification and apply it to myself. The distinctive of a prayer to saints is that we can place ourselves in their situation while they had the limited resource of this-life, same as I do.
all you have is a possibility
Aha. That is "doctrine": a theoretical sanction for a practical act.
St. Martyr George, help me kill this dragon. In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, in thy company and the prayers of all saints in Heaven I pray, amen. May the lizard of Luther be slayed for the ages. Amen.
So salvation is not by faith alone but by works also. See James 2:
[17] So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself. [18] But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith. [19] Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. [20] But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? [21] Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? [22] Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? [23] And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. [24] Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only? [25] And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers, and sending them out another way? [26] For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead.
(3) Now in the Catholic Church itself we take the greatest care to hold that which has been believed everywhere, always and by all. That is truly and properly 'Catholic,' as is shown by the very force and meaning of the word, which comprehends everything almost universally. We shall hold to this rule if we follow universality [i.e. oecumenicity], antiquity, and consent. We shall follow universality if we acknowledge that one Faith to be true which the whole Church throughout the world confesses; antiquity if we in no wise depart from those interpretations which it is clear that our ancestors and fathers proclaimed; consent, if in antiquity itself we keep following the definitions and opinions of all, or certainly nearly all, bishops and doctors alike.
“So salvation is not by faith alone but by works also. See James 2:”
Are you sure you know what you’re talking about? (I already know you don’t, I’m just wondering if you actually think you do, or not.) James is only talking about a living faith, contrast to the belief of Demons. It does not contradict Paul who says that we are justified by faith, in uncircumcision, before we fulfill the circumcision.
“Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.”
(Rom 4:8-9)
What you and I are talking about is grace, which both faith and works must bow to. For it is by grace, as you quoted, that we are saved, and it is by grace that we have faith, and by grace that we perform the good works appointed to us before the world began. It is the gift of God, given to an undeserving sinner, who was plucked up out of the world to serve God’s purpose.
Joh_15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
I like Augustine’s commentary on this verse.
“For the Lord Himself also sufficiently explains this calling when He says, You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you. John 15:16 For if they had been elected because they had believed, they themselves would certainly have first chosen Him by believing in Him, so that they should deserve to be elected. But He takes away this supposition altogether when He says, You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you. And yet they themselves, beyond a doubt, chose Him when they believed on Him. Whence it is not for any other reason that He says, You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, than because they did not choose Him that He should choose them, but He chose them that they might choose Him; because His mercy preceded them according to grace, not according to debt. Therefore He chose them out of the world while He was wearing flesh, but as those who were already chosen in Himself before the foundation of the world. This is the changeless truth concerning predestination and grace. For what is it that the apostle says, As He has chosen us in Himself before the foundation of the world? Ephesians 1:4 And assuredly, if this were said because God foreknew that they would believe, not because He Himself would make them believers, the Son is speaking against such a foreknowledge as that when He says, You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you;” (Augustine, Treatise on the Predestination of the Saints)
Too bad you’d rather listen to your pop star St. Vincent over those who actually take the time to read the scripture and teach from it!
Oops, somehow I cut off my quote from Romans:
“Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.”
(Rom 4:8-10)
Thank you for expressing the Catholic doctrine so clearly. You were arguing with me?
Indeed we are not saved by circumcision, or else I would have to schedule some time with a mohel. Ouch.
“You were arguing with me?”
Apparently I wasn’t, as otherwise you are a confused Augustinian/Calvinist or a Catholic who isn’t capable of giving scriptural exegesis, and so you claim that you agree with me since you don’t know how you don’t agree with me. You condemned Monergism earlier, and you conceded that we must earn grace by our works, rather than faith and works being the result of grace.
Whatever the case, whether you are just confused, or some other problem, that you won’t challenge me saves me a lot of trouble!
“Indeed we are not saved by circumcision,”
Indeed, therefore Abraham was not justified by works, he was justified by the kind of faith which leads him to be circumcised. I’m glad you agree with Paul and won’t assert that he is contradicted by James. You’ll make a good Monergist one of these days, once you get over the Papist trappings.
All I said was that that particular post looked quite Catholic. That is because no matter how hard you try, you guys are 60-80% Catholic, with some screws backwards.
Of course I won't. Both St. Paul ans St. James taught the same Catholic doctrines, including that salvation is not by faith alone, but rather by grace alone to which men respond by faith and good works. Read the opening paragraphs of Ephesians 2 again.
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