Posted on 08/15/2013 7:03:11 PM PDT by annalex
Once a woman in the crowd surrounding Christ and His disciples cries out to Him:
Blessed is the womb that bore thee, and the paps that gave thee suck. (Luke 11:27)
What is it? We have, clearly, an act of venerating Mary. Note that the Blessed Virgin is venerated properly: not on her own but as the mother of Christ. Yet the reason for venerating is indeed concerning: it is her physiological and physiologically unique relationship with Jesus that is emphasized. That is not yet paganism with its crude theories of gods giving birth to other gods, but it is lacking proper focus and Jesus corrects it:
Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke 11:28)
|
| The Virgin with the Child on her knees and a prophet pointing at the star. Catacomb of Priscilla, late 2nd c. Source |
Having gotten past this linguistic hurdle, we can understand clearly what this passage, Luke 11:27-28, does: it establishes veneration of saints based not on their blood relation to Christ but on their obedience to God. It is in that sense that we venerate Our Lady: given that Christ is the Word of God personified, she heard and kept both Him in person as her Child and His teaching, figuratively. In Mary the essence of sainthood is seen in the flesh as well as in the mind. We could say that by the late second century at the latest, when we find evidence of the veneration of both the prophets and the Mother of God in the catacombs, the two reasons to venerate a saint: his martyrdom as in the case of Polycarp, or his obedience to the Word, as in Mary, -- unite into a single practice.
Prayer to saint is supported in the Holy Scripture indirectly though its components: eternal life, abundant and superior faculties of saints, intercessory prayer and the witness of saints.
I gave you the original. Besides, King James Version has it “friends”. If you want to believe your mickey mouse translations, you are free to do so, but it makes you ...well... a Protestant, and not someone with serious interest in the Holy Scripture.
That is correct: Mary was created by God to be the Mother of God.
I never speak badly about other Churches through the blindness of their bishops separated from us: the Armenian, the Coptic, and the Eastern Orthodox.
Protestants simply do not have "churches", they have houses of worship where they talk about Christian religion. They are not merely in schism but in error as to the nature of the Church. I respect individual Protestants, who often have strong faith, but I cannot respect their heretical movement.
If you can chose to do good, then why don’t you all the time?
Because I am not a robot but a human being with complex psychic architecture parts of which I inherit from Adam and his sin. I have my own energy which God gave me to use on my free will, and from time to time I use my energy not to serve God but to serve my lower passions. That is Catholic anthropology.
In verse 21 there is no friends, certainly not "family"; besides, the "οχλος" above already indicates that the action is that of the crowd collectively:
και ακουσαντες οι παρ αυτου εξηλθον κρατησαι αυτον ελεγον γαρ οτι εξεστη
and hearing the around Him went to-hold Him saying therefore that crazy
You guys make false translations, then try to do "scripture alone" from your (plural-collective) falehoods. And you argue? Read some. unbound.biola.edu/; www.perseus.tufts.edu
You can repeated your soliloquy all you want, and even kneel before statutes beseeching your demigodess, but it has no real support - esp as a doctrine regardless of your strained attempts extrapolate such - in the light of the abundance of God-breathed Scripture on prayer to Heaven, and it is a post NT practice more akin to paganism.
But perhaps you will gain an indulgence for using up some our time exposing it again and again . Bye.
1Ti_4:6 If you put these things before the brothers, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, being trained in the words of the faith and of the good doctrine that you have followed.
It is for our benefit that we listen to other people doctrine and make very sure we are talking about God correctly. God expects that we speak correctly about Him and He has given us His word so that we will know Him. Otherwise we are not as fruitful as we could be.
I WILL tell you my church is a path to heaven just as there are many other churches are similar paths. But I will also say there are many churches that are teaching absolutely false things. Would you not speak out about them? Would you not speak out about homosexuals as preachers? If so, then where do you draw the line of "trashing" another church? There is no line where good doctrine is concerned.
You are absolutely correct that faith is between you and God-but not your doctrine. Doctrine is what you speak about God and, if you are in error, it is incumbent on other Christians to let you know. It is also true for you to speak out if you are absolutely convinced of something. Each Christian holds correct and incorrect views of God, some more than others. This includes you and me. It is our pilgrim's journey together to rightfully understand where we are correct and where we are in error about God. But, as Job's friends later understood, we need to humble ourselves to God and pray that he'll forgive us if we speak falsely about Him. We don't have all the answers.
We certainly don't need to "trash" other peoples' churches but it is absolutely wrong in God's eyes if we don't say something. Paul never minced words in telling people they were "foolish", "deceived", "bewitched", etc in regards to their doctrine. Neither did James who told the brethren, "Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded." Our Lord told some of the leaders of that time, "You know neither the scriptures or the power of God." And in the very early days of the church, the leaders never had a problem forming councils to rout out heretical views. This is how many of the creeds came into being. They weren't offended with someone else's view. But the councils and their creeds were meant to keep everyone on course about their view of God. In those days people were simply ask to repent of their views.
Today we no longer have councils. Everyone does what is good in their own eyes. We won't "trash" someone else's beliefs for the sake of unity. Well, it's not trashing. It is trying to get them back on track in a spirit of love.
Talking correctly about God is our duty. The trouble is we don't take our doctrine or what God has revealed in the scriptures about Himself seriously enough. That is one of the reasons the church is in the mess it is in today.
Then you simply don't understand monergism. Please read the confession:
I. God has endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that is neither forced, nor, by any absolute necessity of nature, determined good, or evil.[1]
II. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom, and power to will and to do that which was good and well pleasing to God;[2] but yet, mutably, so that he might fall from it.[3]
III.Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation:[4] so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good,[5] and dead in sin,[6] is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.[7]
IV. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, He frees him from his natural bondage under sin;[8] and, by His grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good;[9] yet so, as that by reason of his remaining corruption, he does not perfectly, or only, will that which is good, but does also will that which is evil.[10]
V. The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to do good alone in the state of glory only.[11]
------
[1] MAT 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. JAM 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. DEU 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live.
[2] ECC 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions. GEN 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
[3] GEN 2:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
[4] ROM 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. JOH 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
[5] ROM 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
[6] EPH 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins. 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved). COL 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses.
[7] JOH 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. EPH 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;). 1CO 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. TIT 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. 4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.
[8] COL 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son. JOH 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
[9] PHI 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. ROM 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. 22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
[10] GAL 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. ROM 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 18 For I know that in me(that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
[11] EPH 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ. HEB 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect. 1JO 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. JUD 24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy.
Do I need to post the entire book of Mark here. Please read Chapter 3. At the beginning of Chapter 3 it states the following:
Mar 2:2 And straightway many were gathered together, insomuch that there was no room to receive them, no, not so much as about the door: and he preached the word unto them.
Of uncertain affinity; a dwelling (more or less extensive, literally or figuratively); by implication a family (more or less related, literally or figuratively): - home, house (-hold), temple.
That's only true if "degrade" actually has some meaning other than criticize, which I doubt. And if ALLLLLLL other churches are perfect. I say this because the Lord had no problem pointing out when people were wrong and that is also true of the apostles and prophets.
I believe it is only unity churches and wiccans who hold your opinion now that I think of it.
21: And when his family heard it, they went out to seize him, for people were saying, “He is beside himself.”
v21: the Greek for “family” here is actually idiom and can mean any kind of insider such as relative, confederate, and so on. It is normally interpreted as “family” because of the discussion in v31-35 (Gundry 1993, p171). In the Western text tradition (D and W) the text has the scribes, not his family, set out to seize him. Most exegetes believe the original version had “his family” and not “scribes,” as the RSV translates here.
from A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the GNT]
His friends (oi par autou). The phrase means literally “those from the side of him (Jesus).” It could mean another circle of disciples who had just arrived and who knew of the crowds and strain of the Galilean ministry who now come at this special juncture. But the idiom most likely means the kinspeople or family of Jesus as is common in the LXX. The fact that in verse #31 “his mother and his brothers” are expressly mentioned would indicate that they are “the friends” alluded to in verse #21. It is a mournful spectacle to think of the mother and brothers saying,
He is beside himself (exesth). Second aorist active indicative intransitive. The same charge was brought against Paul (#Ac 26:24; 2Co 5:13). We say that one is out of his head. Certainly Mary did not believe that Jesus was in the power of Beelzebub as the rabbis said already. The scribes from Jerusalem are trying to discount the power and prestige of Jesus (#3:22). See on “Mt 9:32”-34; see also “Mt 10:25”; see also “Mt 12:24” for Beelzebub and Beelzebul. Mary probably felt that Jesus was overwrought and wished to take him home out of the excitement and strain that he might get rest and proper food. See my The Mother of Jesus: Her Problems and Her Glory. The brothers did not as yet believe the pretensions and claims of Jesus (#Joh 7:5). Herod Antipas will later consider Jesus as John the Baptist redivivus, the scribes treat him as under demonic possession, even the family and friends fear a disordered mind as a result of overstrain. It was a crucial moment for Jesus. His family or friends came to take him home, to lay hold of him (krathsai), forcibly if need be.
Mary was created by God to be the mother of Himself.
I wonder what's in that incense they use.....
It is precisely as a doctrine that veneration of saints is supported in the Holy Scripture. What is lacking is an indication that anyone prayed to a saint who passed on, i.e. to St. Stephen or St. James or St. John the Baptist for these were the only three specifically Christian saints dead before the New Testament was closed. Although in the latter case, Herod sort of counter-prayed:
This is John the Baptist: he is risen from the dead, and therefore mighty works shew forth themselves in him. (Matthew 14:2)
So what is lacking is a confirmation of praxis. As for the doctrine, that is amply supported: eternal life being superior, people dead in Christ offering witness, prayer one for another having greater power, -- all these are doctrinal elements and they are wholly scriptural. You know what the word "doctrine" means, right?
Nearly missed this excellent post of yours, Harley. Exactly so: for differences between us cannot pass without a mutual challenge. Quite the opposite is the case: if a church serves the true God then that church will know that is so, will be able to say so to anyone, and will have that duty. While I can be cutting in my remarks, I would never fault another religion or church for claiming the mantle of the One True Church. I would rather hold suspect any religious group that does not stand by its beliefs.
In where they are distinctive. Many beliefs we all have in common. Some beliefs we have in common with Muslims or Jews. Virtually every belief we Catholics have in common with the Orthodox. But where distinctions are made: e.g. veneration of saints or liturgical dimension to worship, I stand by Catholic beliefs and proclaim them solely correct and the rest -- damnable heresy. I realize that others may feel equally strongly the opposite: that ardor is the work of their God-given free will and is a beautiful thing.
On that part I agree with the confession (which is it, Augsburg?) as well. But that is simply the Catholic doctrine of salvation by grace alone.
Does “monergism” make God author of our sins?
Was Capernaum His “family dwelling place”?
And how do you know that between entering a house in Mark 2:2 and being presumably in a house, even though the Gospel only says “and gathering again” in Mark 3:20 no change of venue occurred? Especially if a sea trip intervened between the two episodes?
So you started with a misleading translation. Now you built up a whole theory of the two houses being the same and His family house, — in Capernaum, — only to be able to slander Mary as believing her Son was mad and Jesus for publicly abandoning her for that. Lovely. How about reading the scripture for what is in it, especially since your confession makes such a fuss about being “biblical”?
You are telling me? I told you so two days ago.
That is miraculously means "family" is slanderous reach of Protestant obfuscators, whose name is legion.
Even the Old Testament was not available to be poured over in the kitchen, as it was in so many 17th Century New England households. Writing was on scrolls or cordices, each of which contained a single book. The first Bibles, as we know them, of the size we known was the Paris Bible, in Latin, which were copied in large numbers in the 13th centuries. Scriptures in the synagogues, were meant to be read aloud, not to be scanned by ordinary individuals in private. St. Ambrose, in the 4th century was regarded as singular because read books to himself. The English Puritans reading aloud to his family at supper was following the pattern laid down in the first House churches, a practice carried on in public in the first church buildings. I short, reading Scripture was something done publicly, and the canon was developed by choosing which of the books were read aloud in the churches acrossd the Christian world.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.