Posted on 08/15/2013 7:03:11 PM PDT by annalex
Once a woman in the crowd surrounding Christ and His disciples cries out to Him:
Blessed is the womb that bore thee, and the paps that gave thee suck. (Luke 11:27)
What is it? We have, clearly, an act of venerating Mary. Note that the Blessed Virgin is venerated properly: not on her own but as the mother of Christ. Yet the reason for venerating is indeed concerning: it is her physiological and physiologically unique relationship with Jesus that is emphasized. That is not yet paganism with its crude theories of gods giving birth to other gods, but it is lacking proper focus and Jesus corrects it:
Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke 11:28)
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| The Virgin with the Child on her knees and a prophet pointing at the star. Catacomb of Priscilla, late 2nd c. Source |
Having gotten past this linguistic hurdle, we can understand clearly what this passage, Luke 11:27-28, does: it establishes veneration of saints based not on their blood relation to Christ but on their obedience to God. It is in that sense that we venerate Our Lady: given that Christ is the Word of God personified, she heard and kept both Him in person as her Child and His teaching, figuratively. In Mary the essence of sainthood is seen in the flesh as well as in the mind. We could say that by the late second century at the latest, when we find evidence of the veneration of both the prophets and the Mother of God in the catacombs, the two reasons to venerate a saint: his martyrdom as in the case of Polycarp, or his obedience to the Word, as in Mary, -- unite into a single practice.
That should be a hint to all who seek truth. The Holy Spirit chose words for a reason. Not for some cultish religion to insert it’s own meanings.
There can be no good reason for this CHANGE, other than the RCC disliked what the Holy Spirit had to say. Imagine, correcting GOD. And if it’s done ONCE...
They have to make scripture fit their structure of control. It’s not difficult to see Satan’s hand all over that organization.
Not only is there not a single piece of scripture to back up your false claim, Jesus did not purchase anyone in your religion according to Catholics...You guys have to buy your way in with good works, and you won't know if you paid enough til the final judgment...
The reality is, there isn't a single Catholic in heaven and never will be...Only Christians make it to heaven...
If the Buddhist Monk denies themselves for love of others they are following the law of love written on his heart placed there by God, and thus follow in the footsteps of Christ by following love that is only given from Christ who is God
If the Buddhist Monk denies themselves for love of others they are following the law of love written on his heart placed there by God, and thus follow in the footsteps of Christ by following love that is only given from Christ who is God
That was one pathetic admission and a total denial of the sacrifice of Christ. More than one way is not what scripture teaches.
I did not remember by post number. Of course I remember the exchange.
I understand that one should try to obey laws, and certainly one should not disobey a law simply because it inconveniences him. But one must disobey an unjust law such as the laws that guard abortionists or enable war crimes. I don’t imagine a veteran, especially, would find this position offensive.
I did not intend to offend Daniel with such crudity, and to the extent that I came across rude, I apologize. I can be caustic, but rude I don’t like to be. I was surprised that he brought this stuff up from another thread and was genuinely at a loss why he though it was a suitable context on a thread about veneration of saints. Recall, however, that I and Catholics in general are routinely called idolaters or in denial of the Holy Scripture and these are really fighting words to me. Anyone who finds me rude or otherwise unpleasant should stay away from conversations with me; given that we are soon 3,000 posts, there would still be plenty left who value my company.
Define love and how the law of love works and why innocent people who are killed go hell while loving others unconditionally?
Show us why you're going to heaven and other who love unconditionally are not?
In distinguishing Catholic priests from Hebrew priests. The distinction is indeed great, and in most languages, not just in Greek, different words are used.
the same shepherding office
It is true that many priests (presbyteroi) were also bishops (episcopoi) and of course every bishop is also a priest. That the two are often mentioned without much distinction does not make priests not priests.
Rome is a law unto herself
That is of course true, but the matter on hand is simply matter of reading and understanding written word, albeit in a foreign to us language.
Manifestly it is because the question, "what must I do to geain lifer eternal?" -- is a general question, and Jesus gave a general response.
the command to "follow Me" is manifestly not to live a life secluded from the world, for Christ and His disciples did not (except when imprisoned), but to confront the world with the gospel.
That is an argument for one kind of monasticism over another, but not an argument against monasticism altogether. Perhaps you are under the impression that monks were all recluses; then you need to familiarize yourself with the history of the European civilization and pay attention to the role monasteries played in building it.
The Beatitudes simply say who is in receipt of divine blessings more than others, and the poor figure first, and the "meek" after them. The general meaning of the Beatitudes is that those who deny themselves are blessed. The moneyed class is not mentioned at all. So, poverty, other things being equal is a blessing. In contradiction to the spirit of the Reformation.
In fact, John Paul II was rather unique in this regard, and much criticized from inside the Church for his rather undiscriminating behavior. But do not forget, these were not doctrinal statements but acts of a polite and very friendly to all man.
Thank you for your company and advice. My advice to you has been given throughout the thread. If you ever have more questions, you are welcome.
the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. (Acts20:28)Which Church is it, with bishops that rule?
The error here is a direct consequence of the foundational Protestant dual error of salvation being by faith alone, while faith is something one can only learn from the Holy Scripture.
You hit the nail on the head!
I personally believe that prayer is the last resort during this time we live in to change hearts.
Sorry, but Pope John Paul II apostatized from the Catholic religion, and is currently in hell even by the feeble standards of the RCC. Observe:
Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos (# 2), Jan. 6, 1928: “For which reason conventions, meetings and addresses are frequently arranged by these persons, at which a large number of listeners are present, and at which all without distinction are invited to join in the discussion, both infidels of every kind, and Christians, even those who have unhappily fallen away from Christ or who with obstinacy and pertinacity deny His divine nature and mission. Certainly such attempts can nowise be approved by Catholics, founded as they are on that false opinion which considers all religions to be more or less good and praiseworthy, since they all in different ways manifest and signify that sense which is inborn in us all, and by which we are led to the obedient acknowledgment of His rule. Not only are those who hold this opinion in error and deceived, but also in distorting the idea of true religion they reject it, and little by little, turn aside to naturalism and atheism, as it is called; from which it clearly follows that one who supports those who hold these theories and attempt to realize them, is altogether abandoning the divinely revealed religion.”
Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos (# 10): “So, Venerable Brethren, it is clear why this Apostolic See has never allowed its subjects to take part in the assemblies of nonCatholics…”
St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, Pt. I-II, Q. 103, A. 4: “All ceremonies are professions of faith, in which the interior worship of God consists. Now man can make profession of his inward faith, by deeds as well as by words: and in either profession, if he make a false declaration, he sins mortally.”
St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Thelogica, Pt. II-II, Q. 12, A. 1, Obj. 2: “...if anyone were to... worship at the tomb of Mahomet, he would be deemed an apostate.”
Compare:
John Paul II, Address, May 22, 2002: “Praise to you, followers of Islam… Praise to you, Jewish people… Praise especially to you, Orthodox Church…”
John Paul II, Redemptoris Missio (# 55), Dec. 7, 1990:
“God… does not fail to make himself present in many ways, not only to individuals but also to entire peoples through their spiritual riches, of which their religions are the
main and essential expression…”
Nor is he alone, as you well know, considering all the Catholics on this forum who were defending the idea of “Atheists of good will” getting into heaven. You’re all the same, teaching the same things.
That is awfully harsh. The only thing that matters is how Christ considers them, or how He shall consider anyone, actually...come Judgment Day.
If it be an issue of perfect doctrine, or even perfect doctrine and practice too, that would still be not yet enough.
Who would this person with "perfect doctrine & practice" be, anyway? I know some here would love to claim such for themselves, yet in practice the smug & smirk, and the snarling spitwads FLY, showing those persons farther from God, than they are from their own religious pride. God will not be mocked...
The very same grace (Mercy, actually) upon which you and I both, I am certain we must both rely, shall be extended by Him to all those whom He wills to receive it.
Please, do not "bash" with such a broad-brush sweep as seemingly you have done in the above quoted portion...
Romans 9:15-16
For he says to Moses,16 So it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God who shows mercy.Perhaps you may have intended to mean that those Catholics who were Christians in spirit and in truth --- would be with Him, in the final end, the final result -- even in Heaven, with Him? Let us pray that that shall be?
For what it may be worth (this could be valuable to some, but fall flat for now, for others) I would like to relate to you what I have heard from two separate women I know, both of them Christian, both having heard (as it were) or received from the Lord the same thing in way of unsought for answer or reply to identical prayer.
Those these two women once belonged to the same ministry and fellowship which I also did, they were separated at the times of themselves praying and 'hearing' by many miles and many years also, speaking with one another only rarely and sporadically, for some twenty years or more from time of initial parting.
So years later, after we had all been dispersed, spread around the country for long years...
They both, independently of one another, told me that as they were praying to Christ, in worship and supplication to Him speaking to Him of His own suffering here on earth, how awful it must have been, ending as it did with that great and painful suffering of His crucifixion...
They both remarked to me that were taken by surprise, as given answer or reply from Him, with Him saying or revealing to them that His suffering here, as difficult as that was, does not compare with the strain and difficulty He will face as He stands in Judgment over men's very souls.
Now that is a true story, as best as those women both told it to me that I can recall. Of some perhaps minor interest but possible validation (be it stamp of authenticity, or shared identical delusion of mind -- I will open for whomever's discernment) it became known among the three of us, that I told both of them what the other had said of those prayers they offered, and the "answer" or reply they had both gotten, before either of them had spoken to the other about what they had learned in prayer --- meaning they did not get together and share notes before happening to independently relate nearly identical accounts to me.
Now this sort of thing I shared at risk of having some here possible see this as validation for prayers to departed saints, etc.
Yet before taking slight information and running too far ahead with it (if such as these women spoke of is accepted as having meaning) I would like to remind everyone, that as best as can be determined by study of the earliest primitive Church, there were prayers of supplication and thanksgiving to God for those looked upon as having been saints, and other dead & departed from among their own previous fellowship together under Christ.
It was not until some centuries later that men took to praying not "for" or about those who had passed on, but praying TO them instead --- which is an entirely different matter altogether (compared to more or most original practice).
One more thing. Those two women? One of them, and yet a third who was once of the same church and fellowship, for years time also widely distanced from the others, with one of the first two I spoke of -- told me, BOTH of the two of this slightly differing pairing, that they had also been [again, independently] shown that as one put it --- "when all are brought in who shall be brought it, and the Gates are closed from within, it will be a surprise to many just who is there, and who is not.", with "story" such as this coming from others also, said to have been received by revelation, through prayer.
Which Church is it, with bishops that rule?
Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Just because you find the word bishop in the scriptures and your religion claims it has bishops does not mean that the two have anything in common...The bishops of the church are married with families...
One of the problems is that your bishops claim and teach that Jesus did not purchase anyone but maybe he kicked in a little bit for an incentive and you guys have to come up with the balance...
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