I am all in favor of honest discourse, but frankly there is darn little of it coming from the non-Cat5holics on these threads.
I have asked iscool for documentation approximately a dozen times and I don't him EVER recall supplying ANY.
Further comments like "Now you are just making stuff up" are not appreciated either especially when support/ documentation was supplied in the original post.
As far as I am concerned that is the exact same thing as calling someone a liar and is designed to halt "honest discourse" right in its tracks.
Makin' stuff up seems to be a BIG part of Catholicism!
...since there is nothing in the bible saying it CAN'T be this way...
It seems you are misreading me. Again, I have no desire to irritate you, at all. But I know NT Greek well enough to be a bit irritated myself when patently false statements are made in support of a view. Please read me carefully here. I believe you are wrong about estin. That does not mean I think you are lying. In fact, I intentionally tried to avoid you thinking that by stating I thought your motives were pure. Please go back and reread the original post. But obviously I failed in that objective.
As for “making things up,” if you felt it was too strong, I am sorry. I am accustomed to some very rough and tumble debate and I have used like expressions and even stronger with people I care for and respect, all as a matter of getting the point across. The point here was, and remains, that the distinction you were trying for in the two different forms of the verb simply can’t be supported by standard Greek translation. I stand by that. But if my way of expressing that caused you discomfort, I am sorry for that. It was not intended to do that.
As for honest discourse, I do all that I can, and I try to make it a point to ignore ad hominems when they do occur (as they always do when the other side has run out of live rounds). I do this because it is in keeping with Christ’s command to love. Paul in 1Cor13 says love “Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil,” so I try not to get distracted by personal attacks, because a) sometimes it really isn’t an attack at all, b) it takes me out of Paul’s scope of love, and c) it puts me too much in the center, when Christ is the one who belongs in the center.
As for who is being more honest or dishonest, I think almost everybody here is someone I would trust in the trenches of a real war. I think you’re trying to be honest, as I think we protestants are also trying to be honest. I was young and now I am old, and I have seen way too much heartache over people who were absolutely sure the other person really knew they were wrong and just wouldn’t admit it. Hence the perception of dishonesty. I’ve made an ass of myself more than once with such an errant presumption.
What really happens is people have an experience or an upbringing that makes certain assumptions nearly impossible for them to question. They project this certainty onto others, and cannot believe that the other person could possibly hold their position honestly. And the tragedy is they are not getting that the other person really is being as honest as they know how to be.
This is why I think all communication between those of us who name Christ as Savior should be seasoned with grace, forgiveness, less concern for our own things, and more concern for the welfare of those others whom God has seen fit to put in our lives. That is the sweet savor of the love of Christ that draws lost souls to Him, and in the end that is all that really matters.
So, to the extent I failed in that, please accept my apology.
Peace,
SR