on the Federal Nudge Squad (LINK)
--- I invite you to go over there and visit, actually, because we've got to find some way to deal with the Feds and their insufferable ninny-nannies.
We seem to have come to the stone wall in the discussion. It's pretty obvious , when you think about it, that when Our Lord says "Whoever hears you, hears Me" he could not be talking abut each and every individual as such, since as you know then it would apply to me as an individual believer -- and you would certainly not accept my voice as the Voice of Christ --- and rightly so, I wouldn't accept my voice either; nor yours, CynicalBear; nor yours, Bipolar Bob. Nor Rick Warren's voice; nor Joel Ostein's ; nor Marvin Olasky's; and just imagine the 10,000 others.
All the individuals can differ, and do differ, sometimes radically, on matters of faith and morals, even though they all read the same Bible and pray for the gift of the same Holy Spirit.
So Jesus, in the passage above, must not mean individual voices. It must mean the Church as the Body of Christ, which alone can speak with one voice.
A person who sees the 'church' as just a fellowship of individuals, will not get this. Such a person recognizes either 1.7 billion supposed-to-be-Christian voices, even though they disagree with each other and are as incoherent as Babel; or, really, each person ends up with no voice but his own.
So good day to you, I leave you to your Babel or your solitude. Because you have no one else to listen to.
That is some twisted thinking there. I think you will find even the Apostles had disagreements with each other. So, because we all have a difference we should surrender all to your Church? No way. Are all of your Churchs priests in agreement? On pedophilia? On homosexuality? Is the Pope elected by a 100% margin the very first time a vote is given? I mean you put an impossible bar up there to judge an individual but ignore it when it comes to your own Church. I don't know whether to label that hypocrisy or a straw man argument or both.
That is taken from Luke 10 where Christ is talking to the additional 70 who He appointed as “missionaries” if you will. He wasn’t talking to just the apostles. So yes, He is talking to any true Holy Spirit filled believer who witnesses in His name.
>> since as you know then it would apply to me as an individual believer -- and you would certainly not accept my voice as the Voice of Christ --- and rightly so <<
Oh but you’re leaving out something. Anything anyone teaches is to be held to what is taught in scripture. Paul gave one example of the Bereans who “checked the scriptures daily” to see if even what he taught was so. So yes I would accept the teaching of anyone who comes in the name of Jesus after checking with scripture to “see if these things be true”. That’s the difference between Catholics and those who follow Christ alone. Catholics take the word of men without checking with scripture. Examples would be the sinlessness of Mary, the assumption of Mary and many other teachings and practices of the RCC.
>> All the individuals can differ, and do differ, sometimes radically, on matters of faith and morals, even though they all read the same Bible and pray for the gift of the same Holy Spirit.<<
Sure they differ. Mostly because they started from a particular teaching from man rather than putting aside what men teach and study scripture. They pray for the gift of the same Holy Spirit perhaps but if they are already set in a particular belief system the Holy Spirit will withdraw from them. That’s the problem with most who call themselves Christians today. It’s the men who teach them who they follow attempting all the while to fit scripture into what they teach rather than “search the scriptures daily” to see if what they teach is so. It’s not easy to admit that ones parents, teachers, pastors or whatever were in error in what they taught. Believe me, I’ve been there and done that. Staying in that error however has some very dire consequences.
>> So Jesus, in the passage above, must not mean individual voices. It must mean the Church as the Body of Christ, which alone can speak with one voice.<<
No He doesn’t mean “individual voices”. He meant those who are truly filled with the Holy Spirit and listen to Him only when “searching the scriptures daily” who are drawn to witness for Him. He obviously expected for others to be “labourers” other than just the apostles as we see in verse 2.
Luke 10:2 Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest. >> A person who sees the 'church' as just a fellowship of individuals, will not get this.<<
You are correct. The “ecclesia” or assembly is the body of Christ consisting of all true Spirit filled believers who may gather in many different places. Many have organized what they try pass off as the “church” but have been woefully lacking in what the word “ecclesia” really means and to what Christ referred.
>> So good day to you, I leave you to your Babel or your solitude.<<
Oh my! I guess you didn’t want civil discourse after all. Oh well.