From Calvinist Prosecutor to Catholic Apologist

Catholic World Report ^ | July 26, 2013 | David Paul Deavel

[vladimir998]

“It must be in the same epistle that tells that Mary was assumed.”

Are you saying you don’t believe in Matthew’s gospel being inspired?

[vladimir998]

“I guess I missed the Catohilic teaching that stated “taken up to heaven in a whirlwind” was wrong.”

Not wrong. Just not about the abode of God. And that’s what Protestant by-and-large believe too. Remember Christians believe Jesus opened the gates of Heaven with His death and resurrection.

“Thanks for feeding me the TRUTH!”

At least Calvinisaurus didn’t eat that.

[vladimir998]

“You have any record in the bible that says Calvinosaurus did NOT eat my cat?”

Are you claiming that Calvinosaurus ate your cat?

I rest my case.

[ronnietherocket3]

“No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.” (John 6:44-45)

John 6:35-59
New International Version (NIV)
35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.” 41 At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?” 43 “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. 44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’[a] Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. 46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.” 52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

At that time the Feast of Dedication took place at Jerusalem. (John 10:22)

What Feast is this? Where is it in Scripture?

“All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, or who the Father is except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.” (Luke 10:22)

21 At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do. 22 “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows who the Son is except the Father, and no one knows who the Father is except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.” 23 Then he turned to his disciples and said privately, “Blessed are the eyes that see what you see. 24 For I tell you that many prophets and kings wanted to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.” The Parable of the Good Samaritan 25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?” 27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’[a]; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b]” 28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.” 29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”

How did this lawyer know the right answer?

John 3:3 “Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

John 3
New International Version (NIV)
Jesus Teaches Nicodemus
3 Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.” 3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.[a]” 4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!” 5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[b] gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You[c] must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”[d] 9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked. 10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? 11 Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.[e] 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,[f] 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”[g]

What is this water? Why does Jesus not rebuke Nicodemus for calling him Rabbi? What does the title Rabbi mean? Where does it come from?

[presently no screen name]

Being unteachable and defiant about it doesn’t end well.
Do you know that, also?

[ronnietherocket3]

I have had a realization that changes my my perspective on this argument. Once I have developed it, I will respond; until such a time, I will not. If you want a pre-figuring of it: Heb 10:16, third and fifth joyful mysteries (try to find the actual verses), and Lk 24:45.

[presently no screen name]

No, it isn’t.

Of course it isn't to Catholics - their way is 'man'.

Christianity is THE WAY, they follow Jesus The Way. So they are called Christians.

[vladimir998]

Yes, so don’t be that way. Stop rejecting the truth.

[vladimir998]

“Of course it isn’t to Catholics - their way is ‘man’.”

Nope. Our way is God and His Church. Your way goes back to Martin Luther and that’s it.

“Christianity is THE WAY, they follow Jesus The Way. So they are called Christians.”

It was called The Way FIRST. Thus, according to you, when Christianity was called The Way, and Christians were not yet called Christians, they must not have believed in Jesus alone, right? I mean, according to your logic, that has to be it, right?

The answer is inescapable. You fail. Again.

[presently no screen name]

Again, show me all the 1st century evidence you have for Matthew’s gospel being inspired. Any Biblical evidence at all?

Still not willing to go to The Father, I see. Roaming about lost and uneducated feels more familiar to catholics. Your 'papa' says to welcome homos priest - go ask them, I'm sure they are ready to enlighten you.

[presently no screen name]

Nope. Our way is God and His Church

Really, Yet you won't go to God to get your question answered and ask for proof for Matthew being inspired. Sounds like frightened child syndrome.

So you might check on who you real father is. The one that wants you to welcome those who practices homosexuality. Nothing but the best for his children!

[boatbums]

Yes, they did - unless they were simply ignorant. And the quote you posted in no way gainsays what I said. Yes, it was. There’s much more evidence for that belief than the reverse.

While it is likely "they" accepted that Mary, the mother of Jesus, died and was buried, I'm specifically talking about the doctrine that she was miraculously assumed into heaven, body and soul. The Catholic Church has never formally defined whether she died or not and NOTHING in Scripture mentions anything about it and, if it is intended by God to be a divinely-revealed belief mandated (essential to the faith) for all Christians, it certainly should have been mentioned, wouldn't you think? Mary died decades before the letters of John were written, yet the Apostle Jesus entrusted the care of his mother to, never gives the slightest hint about this "miracle" happening to Mary. Why not?

We don't have ANY real knowledge of the day, year, and manner of Mary's death. The dates which are presumed for her death vary between three and fifteen years after Christ's Ascension. As the article I quoted earlier stated, the idea was first expressed in narratives of the fifth and sixth centuries. That doesn't sound like it was ALWAYS by EVERYONE believed, ignorant or not. It wasn't until the TWENTIETH (1946) century that the Catholic Church started to define it as a "proposition of faith" and then on November 1, 1950, the Feast of All Saints, Pope Pius XII declared as a dogma revealed by God that "Mary, the immaculate perpetually Virgin Mother of God, after the completion of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into the glory of Heaven".

I'd like to see all this "evidence" you have that disputes what even Catholic references have to say about the subject. And, again, y'all can believe whatever you want about this, where I object, and I am not alone, is when it becomes MANDATED for all Christians to believe and those who reject it are branded as heretics and mortal sinners for not accepting ALL that the magesterium decides is divinely revealed truth. This isn't a case of "we're" right everyone else is wrong and Catholics find themselves forced to defend a doctrine that they may not even agree with for the same reasons other don't, only they aren't ALLOWED to say so.

[daniel1212]

I have had a realization that changes my my perspective on this argument. Once I have developed it, I will respond; until such a time, I will not. If you want a pre-figuring of it: Heb 10:16, third and fifth joyful mysteries (try to find the actual verses), and Lk 24:45.

The verse to see is what follows Heb. 10:16, explaining part of why the new covenant is better: "Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus.." (Hebrews 10:19)

For this provides direct access to God, not a need or provision to meet with saintly secretaries.

And indeed, "Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures" (Luke 24:45) - not traditions, and it is the Scriptures which Rome's tradition of hyper exaltation of Mary goes beyond and is contrary to.

[daniel1212]

Can you answer my questions or not? Here they are again: 1) Where in the Word does it say Matthew wrote a gospel? 2) Where in the Word does it say Matthew’s gospel is inspired?

I have not been following this thread recently, but just responding to pings to me, but i looked further today and saw your reply here and would like to know what your argument is. Thanks.

[vladimir998]

Well, as I expected, you can’t answer the question I asked. You’ll keep throwing in the kitchen sink. Perhaps you think no one will notice how terribly you have failed? Typical.

[vladimir998]

“Really, Yet you won’t go to God to get your question...”

I asked you.

“So you might check on who you real father is.”

Your father is apparently the father of lies. I wonder how desperate you will get to cover up the fact that you can’t answer my question?

[presently no screen name]

I asked you.

I'm not your god.

Break that catholic teaching of asking 'man', go to GOD The Father like His Son Jesus taught us to do.

[vladimir998]

“I’d like to see all this “evidence” you have that disputes what even Catholic references have to say about the subject.”

It’s amazing how quickly and often anti-Catholics resort to lies. I never said anything that disputed “Catholic references”. What the Catholic references say is that there is no EXPLICIT scriptural reference and no EXPLICIT historical reference in the first 4 centuries. The earliest references show a complete acceptance of the doctrine and that acceptance could only come if it was known everywhere and for a very long time.

To say anything else about what I said is to lie - outright lie.

[vladimir998]

“I have not been following this thread recently, but just responding to pings to me, but i looked further today and saw your reply here and would like to know what your argument is. Thanks.”

You’ll have to read the thread. I still waiting for an answer. Thanks.

[presently no screen name]

Perhaps you think no one will notice how terribly you have failed?

People? Your interested in what 'people' will think? That's a 'fear of man' spirit working in you and it's not from God. Do what is right and shame the devil.