Posted on 07/22/2013 2:45:09 PM PDT by NYer
Two days ago, we had a couple of converts to the Catholic Faith come by the office here at Catholic Answers to get a tour of our facility and to meet the apologists who had been instrumental in their conversions. One of the two gave me a letter she received from her Pentecostal pastor. He had written to her upon his discovery that she was on her way into full communion with the Catholic Church. She asked for advice concerning either how to respond or whether she should respond at all to the letter.
As I read through the multiple points her former pastor made, one brought back particular memories for me, because it was one of my favorites to use in evangelizing Catholics back in my Protestant days. The Catholic Church, he warned, teaches “doctrines of demons” according to the plain words of I Timothy 4:1-3:
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, through the pretensions of liars whose consciences are seared, who forbid marriage and enjoin abstinence from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.
What is consecrated celibacy if not “forbid[ding] marriage?” And what is mandatory abstinence from meat during the Fridays of Lent if not “enjoin[ing] abstinence from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving?” So says this Pentecostal pastor. How do we respond?
Innocent on Both Charges
Despite appearances, there are at least two central reasons these claims fail when held up to deeper scrutiny:
1. St. Paul was obviously not condemning consecrated celibacy in I Timothy 4, because in the very next chapter of this same letter, he instructed Timothy pastorally concerning the proper implementation of consecrated celibacy with regard to “enrolled” widows:
Let a widow be enrolled if she is not less than sixty years of age, having been the wife of one husband . . . well attested for her good deeds. . . . But refuse to enroll younger widows; for when they grow wanton against Christ they desire to marry, and so they incur condemnation for having violated their first pledge (I Tim. 5:9-11).
There is nothing ordinarily wrong with a widow remarrying. St. Paul himself made clear in Romans 7:2-3:
[A] married woman is bound by law to her husband as long as he lives. . . . But if her husband dies she is free from that law, and if she remarries another man she is not an adulterous.
Yet, the “widow” of I Timothy 5 is condemned if she remarries? In the words of Ricky Ricardo, St. Paul has some “splainin’ to do.”
The answer lies in the fact that the widow in question had been “enrolled,” which was a first-century equivalent to being “consecrated.” Thus, according to St. Paul, these “enrolled” widows were not only celibate but consecrated as such.
2. St. Paul was obviously not condemning the Church making abstinence from certain foods mandatory, because the Council of Jerusalem, of which St. Paul was a key participant in A.D. 49, did just that in declaring concerning Gentile converts:
For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from unchastity (Acts 15:28).
This sounds just like "enjoin[ing] abstinence from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving." So there is obviously something more to I Timothy 4 than what one gets at first glance.
What Was St. Paul Actually Calling “Doctrines of Demons?”
In A Catholic Commentary on Sacred Scripture, the 1953 classic for Scripture study, Fr. R.J. Foster gives us crucial insight into what St. Paul was writing about in I Timothy 4:
[B]ehind these prohibitions there may lie the dualistic principles which were already apparent in Asia Minor when this epistle was written and which were part of the Gnostic heresy.
Evidently, St. Paul was writing against what might be termed the founding fathers of the Gnostic movement that split away from the Church in the first century and would last over 1,000 years, forming many different sects and taking many different forms.
Generally speaking, Gnostics taught that spirit was good and matter was pure evil. We know some of them even taught there were two gods, or two “eternal principles,” that are the sources of all that is. There was a good principle, or god, who created all spirit, while an evil principle created the material world.
Moreover, we humans had a pre-human existence, according to the Gnostics, and were in perfect bliss as pure spirits dwelling in light and in the fullness of the “gnosis” or “knowledge.” Perfect bliss, that is, until our parents did something evil: They got married. Through the conjugal act perfectly pure spirits are snatched out of that perfect bliss and trapped in evil bodies, causing the darkening of the intellect and the loss of the fullness of the "gnosis." Thus, salvation would only come through the gaining, or regaining, of the “gnosis” that the Gnostics alone possessed.
Eating meat was also forbidden because its consumption would bring more evil matter into the body, having the effect of both keeping a person bound to his evil body and further darkening the intellect.
Thus, these early Gnostics forbade “marriage and enjoin[ed] abstinence from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving.”
If there are any remaining doubts as to whom St. Paul was referring as teaching "doctrines of demons," he tips his hand in his final exhortation in I Timothy 6:20-21:
O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you. Avoid the godless chatter and contradictions of what is falsely called knowledge, for by professing it some have missed the mark as regards faith. Grace be with you.
The Greek word translated above as “knowledge” is gnoseos. Sound familiar? The bottom line is this: St. Paul was not condemning the Catholic Church in I Timothy 4; he was warning against early Gnostics who were leading Christians astray via their “gnosis,” which was no true gnosis at all.
Sad!
Catholic and Protestant are called “The Whore and her daughters” by Yeshua in his Revelation.
I have read both the KJV and the New American Standard Catholic Bibles cover to cover and I don't recall seeing either of the words Catholic or Protestant in there. Could you cite chapter and verse where these words appear?
Thank you for sharing your experience.
Why catholics continually fail and have been easily deceived by the DECEIVER is that they have no UNDERSTANDING of the supernatural which JESUS was talking about. Jesus gave up HIS BODY and shed ALL His Blood for all to be saved and now you are eating and drinking it? That's demonstrating a belief that you don't believe Jesus - exactly what the deceiver wants you to believe - that JESUS didn't give up His Body/Blood for you. Participating in it makes it a personal belief - and the guilt of it - is one catholics 'own' individually, they have no Savior. What Jesus did for all, HE didn't do for them.
Catholics are not spirit filled so they have NO understanding what Jesus was teaching. They take it literally for that is all the understanding they have since they chose to be in a 'worldly and secular' church.
Satan's kingdom is made up of 'man-made teachings' and satan's followers cannot understand the things of God which are Spirit/supernatural. Transubstantiation is a man made belief and those who bow to it, bow to satan unknowingly. However, they remain unteachable so now they do it 'all on their own accord'. So now they have no eternal life but a life deemed to hell - just where satan wants them.
'Man made teachings' teach of purgatory, which is unbiblical. There is heaven and hell. Purgatory is hell - 'man' simply changed the name of 'the place of fire'. The deceiver is a LIAR - satan's only weapon is deception and teaches worship of man is not worship but 'venerate'. The deceiver LIES. The bible calls it idolatry. 'Man made teachings' void God's Word. So it's not surprising God's Word is not Catholics final authority BUT it will be on Judgement Day and they will have NO ONE to blame but themselves.
Then it's way too late then to even kick themselves for allowing themselves to be deceived and being so prideful while being 'religious'. Did they really think the 'angel of light' was going to show his true colors? Realizing then, if they ONLY LISTENED and OBEYED GOD'S WORD ALONE - no one could have deceived them. Being unteachable is being prideful. Living w/that knowledge for eternity - that they did it all to themselves - for they won't entertain that now - but they WILL have that knowledge and entertain it for eternity and that they, personally, defended the indefensible themselves.
Good lurk to you!
Very well done, sir. You have made quite a convincing case and summarized it very well. Lots of evidence and consistency in each case of evidence. Appreciate it.
My mother, Alice, like Mary is dead! I miss her, and she was a saint, to me. BUT, my mother can no more intercede for me than Mary can do so for Roman Catholics. The is ONLY ONE Intercessor between God and man!
Paul makes the point abundantly clear in 1 Timothy 2: 2 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. ...
Where exactly did JESUS say that? Exodus lists the 10 Commandments given to Moses on the mountain. Paul, in his letter to Ephesus said:
Eph. 6: 6 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. 2 “Honor your father and mother”—which is the first commandment with a promise— 3 “so that it may go well with you and that you may enjoy long life on the earth.”
4 Fathers, do not exasperate your children; instead, bring them up in the training and instruction of the Lord.
5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. 6 Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. 7 Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not people, 8 because you know that the Lord will reward each one for whatever good they do, whether they are slave or free. ...
Please note that Paul then addressed the FATHERS and then SLAVES. He gave little address to mothers.
You can rant all you want and pray useless rote prayers, but they get no closer to God than the floor. "God is a Spirit, and those that worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in truth..." -John 4:24
As we can see, it can mean from above...It can mean 'again'...
Oddly enough, Google Translate has only two translations: above, and from above. Nothing about 'again'.
Bing Translator has 'above' only.
Where did you find your translation?
You have learned something far from truth and and now are trying to teach error to others! God does not operate a "dog and pony show" for the benefit of men. Paul makes the point abundantly clear who can intercede for us sinners, and their purpose, in 1 Timothy 2: 2 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. ..
Very cute!
Whose Greek??? There's a bunch of them out there...
Dr. Zodhiates is a protestant native speaking Greek with a Doctorate of Theology. I have also studied Greek at the graduate level.
So did the KJV translators...You better at it than they were???
Now why exactly are you disagreeing with Dr. Zodhiates? Are you a native speaking Greek with a Doctorate of Theology? Have you studied Greek at the graduate level?
Don't need to...All these smart guys wrote books...And I can read the books...And these smart guys don't all agree with each other...
Can you translate better than the translators that translated all the bibles out there??? If you can't, you wasted a lot of time and money...
The only one copying and regurgitating is you, and when you have at least the credentials I have then I might consider listening to your stolen opinion.
I hope you don't break your arm patting yourself on the back... Theology eh??? So you studied about religion but you didn't bother to study the bible...And that clearly shows...
LOL...
I join in your prayer.
Again not accurate. Neither Catholics nor Orthodox pray to Mary or the saints. We ask them to pray for us. I’m assuming that you have asked others to pray for you, we do likewise. We however are willing to also make the request of the Church Triumphant. After all we.believe that those who have fallen asleep in The Lord have eternal life and can thus pray for us.
Thank you, it is nice to have hard work appreciated.
Please ping me if he every replies.
Sound and fury signifying nothing.
All that BLUSTER and BLATHER and yet not one thing disputing what was said.
Jesus said what He said and there is no denying it. Nor is there any denying what those who actually heard Him thought. No denying that Jesus did not correct their thinking even when others left over this hard saying.
Catholics are both/and believers since we know that Jesus’ flesh profits everything for us, just as He promised.
This post is nothing more than a protestant debate trick. Don’t respond to the specific but rail away with passion and CAPS as if offended to even be asked to give a reasoned response.
Carry on. You are doing a fine job.
Can you translate better than the translators that translated all the bibles out there??? If you can't, you wasted a lot of time and money...
Mark asked you a question in #249, please answer him before you embarrass yourself further.
How about you prove they didn’t.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.