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I would submit though, for anyone who doesn’t have a pre-determined agenda against the Church, I don’t think it’s that objectionable at all to believe those in heaven can indeed hear our cries for help. After all, it seems quite reasonable to me that at least our departed loved ones will still care for us even in heaven. That is, I doubt they stop caring about us just because they are “there”.

And so what's the point of having saints in heaven pray for us?

We have Jesus interceding for us and the Holy Spirit interceding for us, both according to the will of God (which should go without saying).

WHY go to the saints? Is God too busy? Do people think God isn't listening to them or going to listen to them?

Do they think the more people asking on their behalf is going to change God's mind?

Are they going to do something for them that God Himself would not do, IOW to act contrary to God's will?

Jesus Himself told us to pray to the Father and promised the HE would hear and answer us. Is that not good enough?

What more would someone want than to have the Creator of the whole universe Himself promise to hear and answer our prayers Himself?

From reading the prayers directed to the saints, it sure seems that people think that the saints are more compassionate and merciful towards humans than God Himself is.

"Hey, so and so, ask God for me....."

What an appalling lack of trust in God to do what is right and lack of faith in the promises Jesus made about prayer and the Father.

Even though this point has been raised ad nauseum on this thread (I’m sure) and elsewhere, I simply can’t resist asking you the following question: do you not see any value at ALL in intercessory prayer, or do you only do it because the Bible tells you to pray for others?

I ask because I honestly can’t believe you just wrote the following:

“’Hey, so and so, ask God for me.....’

“What an appalling lack of trust in God to do what is right and lack of faith in the promises Jesus made about prayer and the Father.”

Now I’m going to guess you will say something like: “Of course I’ll ask someone ALIVE to pray for me” or “the people in heaven can’t hear your requests for intercessory prayer”, or something like THAT, which will just go to prove conclusively what I claimed in the post of mine to which you offered a reply.

Note: that’s a GUESS as to what you aware going to reply back to me. I can’t know for SURE since I can’t read minds. But I’m pretty sure I’m right. :).

What gets missed in these arguments for or against prayer to departed saints is the purpose we have for asking others to pray for us as well as praying for others. Everything you said was correct - that Jesus always directed our prayers to the Father and His promise to hear and acting always in what is best for us according to God's will. When we look at the many times in the Epistles where believers are asked to pray for the ministry and deliverance from trials, it is always addressed to living believers FOR the benefit of the living.

When we pray for others, we are actively taking a part in their lives and ministry and, when we see prayers answered, our faith is encouraged and strengthened. Those who pray to "saints" - even if they claim to be only "asking" for their intercession - either give the initial glory to the saint instead of Almighty God or they assume something lacking in themselves if their prayers are not answered - the "saint" can't possibly be lacking. Sharing our burdens with others right here helps to establish a relationship and solidarity with their lives and causes a brotherly love that comes from agreement in prayer. I do not see anywhere in Scripture where we are told to seek the prayers of deceased saints and I believe that is for a very good reason.